BMW model codes include Supra (J29) with auto transmission, 4 and 6 cylinder engines

If the following is true for the Toyota, would you still be interested?

  • Yes

    Votes: 12 34.3%
  • No

    Votes: 21 60.0%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 2 5.7%

  • Total voters
    35
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HKz

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Had to register for this; The list in the OP is inconclusive at best:

1- In the BMW forums, members there have pointed out some model combinations listed in that DB extraction that does NOT exist in the market. Indicating how accurate this list is.
2- There are nearly 2x variations of G29 vs J29...what gives?
3- It doesn't list GCC, Japanese or Australian Markets variations, again incomplete list.
4- Toyota Hired a specialist just to nail down the "feel" of the manual shifts in the ZN6/ZC6, they know how important a proper manual is, in such cars.
5- The Z5 spy shots does show a manual car. Developing the shared chassis to include a manual is paid for then! (Inverse of this case: I recall an SRT engineer in an interview explaining why the Charger doesn't come with a stick shift because, unlike a challenger, the charger chassis floor was not developed with the manual in mind)
6- That list was last updated 6 months ago! around that time, IIRC, the mk5 supra was rumored as an AWD hybrid .... LOL

With the backlash from the 911 GT3's PDK only option, i think Toyota knows how vocal the community can be. Porsche now offers a manual in the GT3RS. I certainly do believe that the Z5/supra twins have larger market than GT3 or GT3RS models.
Heck even 'Hyundai' knows how important a manual is for enthusiasts, they released their i30N hothatch as manual only (and it sold so good, that it sold out in just 48 hours in Germany); my point is that there IS still a valid business case for manual sports cars.



TL;DR : this list is in no position to deny that the mk5 Supra will ever come with a manual.
Toyota indeed knows the importance of a manual, but this is BMW handling the project and they ultimately decide what Toyota gets. Despite being on the same chassis, Mazda did not give Fiat their latest transmission featured on the ND Miata so can you imagine how reluctant BMW would be to share any tech in general with an economy brand? Sharing the ZF on the other hand is nothing to them, all automakers in the west use them. I agree, none of this is conclusive....however, if you take everything, rumor or official, into account for (none of the 3 toyota variant mules have yet to feature a manual which is still odd either way, all the news surrounding bmw giving up on dcts and manuals, the only spy shots have been in just germany & us, no manuals with any of the F series cars from Lexus) then you can see how difficult it is to imagine a manual now...and those model codes are icing on the cake. the chances that the list is fabricated and that they coincidentally happened to put auto only on the only rwd toyota in the list seems pretty slim to me.

As for this being a good business case for them, sadly I don't think so especially considering this was a cost savings project for both companies, not a technological showcase...I'm sure most board members for the automakers shake their head at the costs & time to develop a MT for pretty much any car. If I'm not mistaken, if an automaker wants to sell a car both with multiple trans variants (MT/AT) they have to certify each variant individually for every category whether crash safety, emissions & fuel economy tests, etc.
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bogglo

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Toyota indeed knows the importance of a manual, but this is BMW handling the project and they ultimately decide what Toyota gets. Despite being on the same chassis, Mazda did not give Fiat their latest transmission featured on the ND Miata so can you imagine how reluctant BMW would be to share any tech in general with an economy brand? Sharing the ZF on the other hand is nothing to them, all automakers in the west use them. I agree, none of this is conclusive....however, if you take everything, rumor or official, into account for (none of the 3 toyota variant mules have yet to feature a manual which is still odd either way, all the news surrounding bmw giving up on dcts and manuals, the only spy shots have been in just germany & us, no manuals with any of the F series cars from Lexus) then you can see how difficult it is to imagine a manual now...and those model codes are icing on the cake. the chances that the list is fabricated and that they coincidentally happened to put auto only on the only rwd toyota in the list seems pretty slim to me.

As for this being a good business case for them, sadly I don't think so especially considering this was a cost savings project for both companies, not a technological showcase...I'm sure most board members for the automakers shake their head at the costs & time to develop a MT for pretty much any car. If I'm not mistaken, if an automaker wants to sell a car both with multiple trans variants (MT/AT) they have to certify each variant individually for every category whether crash safety, emissions & fuel economy tests, etc.
Everything you listed to me sounds like a good news. That means we don't have to worry about having bmw parts in the car. Also that list was made 6 months ago since then toyota released the camry. Before the release of the camry who knew what the output of that engine would be? the LS was released there were all kinds of rumours but was any of the rumours able to guess the exact figure the LS would be putting out, The avalon is testing now and the ES also but the engine output could be anybody's guess. My point is this, Toyota is one of the most secretive car company out there. Even the LC after almost everyone was certain it would have the same output with the GSF's 467Hp what happened they retune the engine. Honestly at this point the only thing thats sure is the chasis every other thing that determine what this car would have is anybody's guess. the way it looks, what engine, weight, transmission, even the suspension.

Also what makes you think bmw is calling the shots(BMW handling the project and they ultimately decide what Toyota gets)? bmw is not deciding anything they are only doing what they have been paid to do (contract). the fact that the car is been tested in Germany does not mean anything. if the car was been designed by toyota alone chances are that you will still find it on the ring testing.

Bottom line if this car is the next supra the fact that it shares it chassis with the bmw does not mean it would be toyota's version of the z4. what supra means to toyota, is different from what the 86 mean to them. and the contract for both project is different.
 

HKz

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no bmw parts? how do you figure that, just because of the ZF trans? and yes I agree, the LC getting 4 more HP was a tremendous secret.

again, the fact that the list is bullshit or not is not that relevant especially considering most info we've gotten on this site has been hogwash anyways. we're all taking everything with a grain of salt and using history & logic of both automakers...either way it is still very coincidental. and you're correct, bmw got paid to finish a contract but you can't tell me that it isn't shaping up to be using bimmer's existing running gear on a new platform with a solid roof and ft1 "inspired" exterior design.
 

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Trying to remember what the sell % of manuals vs autos with the FR-S/BRZ/86 is. HKz probably knows this.
 

HKz

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Trying to remember what the sell % of manuals vs autos with the FR-S/BRZ/86 is. HKz probably knows this.
don't recall it off the top of my head though MT take rate was well above 50%.
 

bogglo

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no bmw parts? how do you figure that, just because of the ZF trans? and yes I agree, the LC getting 4 more HP was a tremendous secret.

again, the fact that the list is bullshit or not is not that relevant especially considering most info we've gotten on this site has been hogwash anyways. we're all taking everything with a grain of salt and using history & logic of both automakers...either way it is still very coincidental. and you're correct, bmw got paid to finish a contract but you can't tell me that it isn't shaping up to be using bimmer's existing running gear on a new platform with a solid roof and ft1 "inspired" exterior design.
I was referring to this statement "Mazda did not give Fiat their latest transmission featured on the ND Miata so can you imagine how reluctant BMW would be to share any tech in general with an economy brand....."

knowing how Toyota like to do their own thing' I don't think there will be a lot shared between them as far as gears is concerned. Also the last time we saw the interior of the mule was before the almost production ready mule we now see running around was spotted. Meaning a lot could have changed since then. If this car would be a supra replacement Toyota wont give its fan any reason to think its a bmw on a toyota body. Now if they were to come out with an entire new name then I 100% agree with what you are saying. I mean they change The SC to LC so its possible to not use the supra name in order to keep the supra's legacy.
 
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mas921

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Toyota indeed knows the importance of a manual, but this is BMW handling the project and they ultimately decide what Toyota gets. Despite being on the same chassis, Mazda did not give Fiat their latest transmission featured on the ND Miata so can you imagine how reluctant BMW would be to share any tech in general with an economy brand? Sharing the ZF on the other hand is nothing to them, all automakers in the west use them. I agree, none of this is conclusive....however, if you take everything, rumor or official, into account for (none of the 3 toyota variant mules have yet to feature a manual which is still odd either way, all the news surrounding bmw giving up on dcts and manuals, the only spy shots have been in just germany & us, no manuals with any of the F series cars from Lexus) then you can see how difficult it is to imagine a manual now...and those model codes are icing on the cake. the chances that the list is fabricated and that they coincidentally happened to put auto only on the only rwd toyota in the list seems pretty slim to me.

As for this being a good business case for them, sadly I don't think so especially considering this was a cost savings project for both companies, not a technological showcase...I'm sure most board members for the automakers shake their head at the costs & time to develop a MT for pretty much any car. If I'm not mistaken, if an automaker wants to sell a car both with multiple trans variants (MT/AT) they have to certify each variant individually for every category whether crash safety, emissions & fuel economy tests, etc.
I can see your point.while i don't want to get my hopes up before the official thing here is what I think.

I do not think BMW calls the shots here, alone that is. IIRC; BMW would not have built the Z5 if they didn't share the development budget with Toyota. both vehicles are built at a 3rd party factory too (EDIT: built by Magna Steyr, subsidiary of Magna, who owns Getrag!) . And am not aware of any BMW built transmissions. Getrag, ZF (Or Aisin!) will sell to whomever.

It's true that non of the Supra Mules were spotted with a manual (yet), but a Z5 was! and the car is quite a bit away from production. ...maybe they're taking more time tuning their version of the MT like how they did to the 86... who knows? :p

The ND Miata, well have you heard of the problems with ND Manual? 2nd gear shattering with LSD equipped ND's?! so I guess Mazda wanted to shed weight as much as possible, even within the tranny, it's just barely handling 148lbft at the crank. Now the Fiat is a turbo engine, with higher torque! (184lbft) Am not aware of any news piece stating that Mazda denied Fiat access to the transmission, but the higher torque capacity; requiring a different tranny, makes more sense to me.

Tada-san (who built the last successful sports car for Toyota), is in charge of the Toyota part here. This guy is a gear-head himself. Lexus are luxury cars, no body wants a Lexus with a manual really. But the Supra is a different animal. its a bigger brother to the 86 more than anything else, and the 86 manuals sold quite well.

The Z5 does indeed have a manual, the chassis was developed to be compatible with a manual, am not a car designer; its a different floor panel won't that be more expensive than certifying a chassis? since the development cost was paid for, by the shared budget; why would Toyota put in money for BMW to build and certify only BMW versions with the Manual? (anybody knows any kind of "budget percentages" between BMW and Toyota?)


Well, am just thinking out loud, maybe Toyota will use that LMP1/hybrid thingy and throw all the above outta the window LOL (kidding, them mk5 mules didn't have the "yellow dot")
 
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Sun Devil

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don't recall it off the top of my head though MT take rate was well above 50%.

That's kind of what I thought. Seems like knowing what a success the manual was with the twins .... why not parlay that success right into the Supra regardless of the bmw collaboration. This is all speculation. Hopefully we will see a manual option.
 

HKz

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I can see your point.while i don't want to get my hopes up before the official thing here is what I think.

I do not think BMW calls the shots here, alone that is. IIRC; BMW would not have built the Z5 if they didn't share the development budget with Toyota. both vehicles are built at a 3rd party factory too (EDIT: built by Magna Steyr, subsidiary of Magna, who owns Getrag!) . And am not aware of any BMW built transmissions. Getrag, ZF (Or Aisin!) will sell to whomever.

It's true that non of the Supra Mules were spotted with a manual (yet), but a Z5 was! and the car is quite a bit away from production. ...maybe they're taking more time tuning their version of the MT like how they did to the 86... who knows? :p

The ND Miata, well have you heard of the problems with ND Manual? 2nd gear shattering with LSD equipped ND's?! so I guess Mazda wanted to shed weight as much as possible, even within the tranny, it's just barely handling 148lbft at the crank. Now the Fiat is a turbo engine, with higher torque! (184lbft) Am not aware of any news piece stating that Mazda denied Fiat access to the transmission, but the higher torque capacity; requiring a different tranny, makes more sense to me.

Tada-san (who built the last successful sports car for Toyota), is in charge of the Toyota part here. This guy is a gear-head himself. Lexus are luxury cars, no body wants a Lexus with a manual really. But the Supra is a different animal. its a bigger brother to the 86 more than anything else, and the 86 manuals sold quite well.

The Z5 does indeed have a manual, the chassis was developed to be compatible with a manual, am not a car designer; its a different floor panel won't that be more expensive than certifying a chassis? since the development cost was paid for, by the shared budget; why would Toyota put in money for BMW to build and certify only BMW versions with the Manual? (anybody knows any kind of "budget percentages" between BMW and Toyota?)


Well, am just thinking out loud, maybe Toyota will use that LMP1/hybrid thingy and throw all the above outta the window LOL (kidding, them mk5 mules didn't have the "yellow dot")
sure, bmw needed the money but it can be argued that it was more vital for toyota to find a partner. ya gotta figure bmw saw toyota needed one to bring out a $25 K sports car so it isn't surprising that they required one for a more expensive project, whereas asking to build a sports cars is probably a lot easier to get through bmw's board. yes, getrag manufactures BMW's current MTs, but they are after all BMW only trans, no other brands use those specific models whereas the ZF 8 speed is used widely. i agree it is a possibility especially since getrag was used for the mk4, but it is interesting to note toyota has been with aisin after that (LFA, 86, all F cars) and that aisin does not supply any german brands.

it is too early & difficult to conclusively claim the nd's gearbox couldn't handle an extra 40 lb ft of torque. there has been plenty of threads by 86 owners breaking theirs trans claiming they didn't do anything wrong and the AP1 had several teething issues which Honda sorted out by the AP2.

we all know tetsuya's supposed role but it is hard to see him influence, let alone lead bmw's platform. the 86 project is not the best comparison as it was a clean slate and toyota's idea from the start (not to mention subaru already shared part of the supply chain toyota uses). understanding manual take rates isn't cut and dry. the cheap 86-brz/miata-124/370z have the highest manual percentages, being around or above 50% (pony cars are embarrassing for this stat)..but 911s currently have somewhere like 10% MTs, C7 is around 25%, and if I'm not mistaken the percentage of MTs on the M2 is higher than the M4 but as we speak they are dwindling below 20%....I can't imagine what it is for the Z4 which barely sells to begin with. So it almost looks as though there is an indirect correlation between MT take rate and cost of the vehicle. unfortunately people who talk about loving manuals are not really part of the group that can really afford a $60 K car.

e: while digging around at getrag's current lineup, it is interesting to see that the Alfa Giulia uses a Getrag & ZF MTs for the 4 and 6 cylinders, respectively. admittedly i stand corrected about no other brands getting to use the getrag sourced bmw trans, however, the fact that america only got the auto only adds to the concerns...
 
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2JZ-No-Sh*t

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Did some digging, the 'leaked' info sounds really similar to the this fake brochure that surfaced earlier this year.

https://www.motor1.com/news/135897/2018-toyota-supra-brochure-leaked/

All aboard the hype train, folks. A Serbian website has posted what seems to be an official brochure of the much-awaited Toyota Supra revival. If this is legit, not only does it confirm the beloved “Supra” moniker, but it also reveals the sports car will indeed carry Gazoo Racing branding as indicated by that black and red logo with “GR” white lettering. A section of the car’s front end is also visible and it shows the production car will remain faithful to the stunning FT-1 concept.

One of the pages of the brochure spills the beans about the technical specifications, such as the Supra’s dimensions: 4380 mm (172 inches) long, 1830 mm (72 inches) wide, 1280 mm (50 inches) tall, and with a wheelbase stretching at 2470 mm (97 inches). Depending on version, the new Supra will weigh between 1,350 and 1,430 kilograms (2,976 and 3,152 pounds) and will be available with 18- and 19-inch alloy wheels.

The entry-level version is going to be powered by a turbocharged 2.0-liter gasoline engine delivering 192 horsepower (143 kilowatts) and 320 Newton-meters (236 pound-feet) of torque. A stronger configuration of the same mill will up the power ante to 252 hp (188 kW) and 400 Nm (295 lb-ft). As for the range-topping model, it will use a larger six-cylinder 3.0-liter engine pushing out a healthy 340 hp (253 kW) and 450 Nm (332 lb-ft).

Toyota’s Supra reboot is said to use BMW engines, and coincidentally (or not), the mid-range 252-hp model does match the 330i in terms of horsepower. This could very well be another sign the brochure we’re looking at in the adjacent grainy pic is the real deal. One could speculate the flagship Supra will use the same six-cylinder engine inside the 326-hp 340i, but massaged to deliver an extra 14 hp.

The latest gossip indicates Toyota will show a near-production Supra concept in October at the Tokyo Motor Show, with the road-going car slated to arrive in 2018 once production will kick off Magna Steyr’s factory in Graz, Austria where the BMW Z4 replacement will also come to life.
 

CSUfiend

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So the "range topping" 2019 "Supra" makes about the same power as the old 1993 Supra Turbo. Sweet:doh:



Using that same logic, I guess Ford should start making range topping 215HP Mustangs again, from the 1993 Mustang:hmm:

:banghead:
 

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I gotta say, with each new rumor that surfaces, I am getting increasingly turned off at the thought of this car being called a Supra. I am on board with this as the next Celica (hope the Celica makes a comeback as well) however. The dimensions, overall design, engine output seems to be more condussive for a reborn Celica of the modern era.

A Supra should not be the result of a cost-cutting development program but one that showcases Toyota's unparalleled performance capabilities much like what was demonstrated during the nineties. A new Toyota wearing the Supra badge should truly be an aspirational, awwinspiring low production and exclusive vehicle more in line with the performance output of the GTR or NSX ( I would like an overachieving, competitive Supra for Corvette-GTR money).

No Supra ever deserves to be given a 4-banger for its heart. Output should start around 400 hp with top end versions north of 500.

The Supra name is an icon. This car we have been teased specs for (whether real or not) does not deserve to bear the flagship, Supra moniker.

This project in recent weeks has been a letdown. The original concept appeared to have the right porportions, design language and the promise of something special.

I would hate to see the Supra name and legend tarnished with something that does not elude the greatest of accomplishments and performance. Replace the 86 with this, call it Celica and be done with it.
 
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jmc08

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eh, slower than a Camry? The current base model Z4 does 0-60 in 5.6 secs and I'm expecting the Toyota variant to be lighter perhaps around 3200 pounds.. And going by the manufacturer's figures, the top of the line TT I6 on the current Z4 35is has slightly higher HP/torque figures than the 2JZ-GTE so it is technically an improvement :dunno:
The new 18 Camry has some impressive numbers for its class. 300 hp out of the XSE V6 deserves bragging rights. I can only hope that anything to be called Supra in the future also warrants genuine bragging rights among Supra enthousiasts and owners of past generations.
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