Why I Think Everyone is Wrong About the MKV (Video)

[PerformanceSound]

Guff, great video...I was actually watching this with my girlfriend last night on YouTube before even seeing this post.

While I agree that Toyota will definitely be injecting alot of it's soul and feel with previous halo cars into the new "FT-1" (still can't officially call it a Supra until Toyota does ;-)), I think we are all forgetting what made the Supra's so great.......the superior engineering and high-quality material use no longer used or available in cars today.

The fact that Toyota (and almost every car maker nowadays) has dropped iron blocks from their arsenal greatly decreases the chances of having a solid platform for high horsepower potential from a STOCK BOTTOM END! I know, I know, the GTR is all aluminum blah blah...but the GTR also costs $100k! Sure the FT-1 will probably handle very well, feel great to drive, be comfortable, have Bluetooth and navigation....but, let's be real...everyone wants a "Supra" that can be modified heavily and drive all day long with no issues...we all want a 100% pure JDM conceived Toyota halo car. My point is, in order for Toyota to make another "Supra" it will need to have the same passion, engineering, and dedication from Toyota as the previous Supra's did...that is what made them so well...they wouldn't cheap out or sacrifice even the tiniest screw or nut to cut costs. Yamaha co-developed the cylinder head on the 1JZ and 2JZ right?....what was the last Toyota car to be co-develop with Yamaha?....ill give you a hint, it costs $400k and only 500 were ever made.

The MKIV is so great because your technically buying a $60k (20 years ago) Toyota halo car for half of that nowadays and are comparing it to a car that will be marketed for $50k (brand new) in today's economic climate. Somethings' gotta give....it's financially not possible to build such a quality sports car today unless it's missing something really important. $60k in 1998 is equivalent to $100k nowadays....if the FT-1 will be $100k, I can see a true "Supra" successor because at that point I know Toyota will have some top notch quality incorporated in the car.

One thing 90's Japanese cars have taught me (and I live by this to this very day) is:
- Fast & Cheap = Not Reliable
- Reliable & Cheap = Not Fast
- Fast & Reliable = Not Cheap

Apply the above logic in today's market, and you will see why Toyota had to work with Subaru and BMW on platform sharing. Even then, we are left with under powered cars and potential inferior motors. The days of quality fast cars that can handle power without cracking open the engine are over, for those with Supra's (and SC300's ;-)), keep them forever....there will never be replacements.

With all that being said, I am a Toyota/Lexus fan to the bone. I believe Toyota won't let us down with the FT-1...but to call it a "Supra" or "Supra Successor" is a little too hopeful. The FT-1 will be great in it's own way, just like the 2000GT, Celica, and Supra.

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[Spilner]

AMAZING VID

love that shoutout to Initial D btw

I don't understand the hate towards the MKV

 

[Mr.Jay]

Haha I stumbled upon this video on YouTube and thought is this Guff from ft86club. Not sure you remember me was a long time member of that forums before leaving 86 and getting a Supra.

 

[Stanri010]

I saw this video a few days ago and was thinking to myself. Sure it'd be great if everything you said was true and while I do hope it turns out like that, I do fear a number of things about the Supra MKV. I don't doubt their vision of the Supra. I just fear there's many obstacles in their way to deliver on a product they want to build.

1) If they decide to use a lot of BMW parts and it's built at Magna Steyr rather than Japan, it might be acceptable for BMW but it wont be Toyota reliable.
2) Word on the street is that BMW and Toyota had a lot of difficulties in the beginning of the project with team dynamics. Reading in between the lines, that probably meant both parties wanted control over the project and neither willing to relinquish control. They have since seemed to have sorted things out but that leaves you wonder. What if BMW strongarmed Toyota in this partnership. Toyota has always seemed to follow BMW's lead on a lot of things. Everything from benchmarking BMW during development to Lexus copying BMW's shift to inflating the numbers on the cars names on turbocharged cars ie. RC300 = 2 liter turbo & x40i = 3 liter turbo. What if Toyota ended up like Subaru in the FT86 and just went along with BMW's design decisions and we end up getting a Toyota Z4 rather than a Supra.
3) From the chassis alone, we can tell that they had to make many compromises from the get go. The signature 2+2 from the MKIV and FT-1 was dropped in favor for a 2 seater means they're willing to make compromises to work with BMW. What other compromises did Toyota have to make to make the project come to life? This casts some doubt on Toyota's ability to deliver a car they WANT to build.
4) If it comes with a BMW engine, will it even carry the heart and soul of a Supra? If it sounds like a M2, looks like an M2 interior, and drives like an M2 sure it'll be fun but is it a Supra? At what point is it just becomes a Toyota badged M2. Personally, I'd prefer to see the 3.5L V6 TT found in the LS500 jammed into this car but that might be too much of an ask. We'll probably get a B58 motor if we're lucky and we certainly can bet on it wont be a S58. The Supra would just get a second tier motor rather than BMW's best. I'd much prefer if toyota put its best foot forward in this project...

 

[Sun Devil]

All good comments. Unlike some of you .... my goal for the FT-1/Supra is an 86 with more factory power. People will always miss the days of iron blocks, analog gauges, manual transmissions, hydraulic steering, etc. etc. But progress always moves forward. Look at Ferrari. They moved on from the manual gearbox and also the NA 458 to the turbo 488. This was considered sacrilegious at the time (turbos) and now .... not such a big issue (although the NA 458 is my dream car).

Like everyone else ... I am getting impatient to see the product. Hopefully it will surprise even the staunchest Toyota fanbois. Until then ... it's just speculation.

 

[PerformanceSound]

My goal for the FT-1/Supra is an 86 with more factory power. People will always miss the days of iron blocks, analog gauges, manual transmissions, hydraulic steering, etc. etc.

That is precisely what the FT-1 will be, an 86 with more power. The sports cars of today are not built to handle heaps of power like they use to be....not because they are junk, but because technology has made it possible for car makers to not use expensive, heavy, and strong--er materials like they required in the past to achieve high performance. For example, the main reason all turbocharged engines were cast iron in the past was because turbo technology and dynamics were not as advanced as today. In the past, car makers made the blocks much stronger to compensate for knocking, detonation, accidental over boost during a failure, etc... It wasn't because they knew people were going to be running 87mm turbo's and E85. It is because of that "lack of technology" if you will, that made older sports cars so great and desirable today. Today, you rarely find cast iron blocks on turbo engines because aluminum technology and forging has made it possible to have lightweight, cost saving, somewhat stout components. It all comes down to cost...cost...cost. The main reason the Supra, 300ZX, 3000GT, and RX-7 got phased out of the US market in the 90's....cost!!!

Look at Ferrari. They moved on from the manual gearbox and also the NA 458 to the turbo 488.

You cannot compare Ferrari's strategy to any other vehicle on the planet....period. The reason being, is that Ferrari can get away with anything on any of their cars and their cars will always continue to sell like hot cakes because Ferrari is more than a sports car maker...they are a way of life for "that" clientele. Also, Ferrari is know as an F1 car maker, so if they come out with a gearbox made of gummy bears...and as long as it was derived from F1, they will have no problems selling it in their cars because it is of F1 standards. Toyota can't get away with things like that so easily, they need to be careful how they market this car and really figure out what the target clientele will be....Supra fanboys, mid-life crisis golfers, or true Toyota enthusiasts who know what a Toyota halo sports car should be?

I always look at this picture and feel confident that they wont screw it up:

 

[Haros]

Well done, my man

 

[mas921]

All good comments. Unlike some of you .... my goal for the FT-1/Supra is an 86 with more factory power. People will always miss the days of iron blocks, analog gauges, manual transmissions, hydraulic steering, etc. etc. But progress always moves forward. Look at Ferrari. They moved on from the manual gearbox and also the NA 458 to the turbo 488. This was considered sacrilegious at the time (turbos) and now .... not such a big issue (although the NA 458 is my dream car).

Like everyone else ... I am getting impatient to see the product. Hopefully it will surprise even the staunchest Toyota fanbois. Until then ... it's just speculation.

i do certainly hope it drives like a more powerful 86, that would be the best case actually.

but i beg to -somewhat- differ, if i may. Progress can also be made into making a car sensational and not electronically disconnected. i don't like to be mindlessly emotionally attached to a certain technology (like them 2jz fanboys yeehaw WTFOMGLOL...), but things like heavy iron blocks , usage of lighter alum. alloys with plasma wire coating is good progress. so is better composite synchro's on manual transmission and "rack type" electric power steering, which is basically a manual rack on feedback wise, with arguably better feedback than hydraulic ones. but all that is not the biggest problem with "progress" IMHO.

the problem is progress, mostly, is going the wrong way! with the bigger portion of car makers R&D budget going into mainstream (more automated, numb/comfortable grocery geters) than anything to connect the driver to the car, heck they're going the opposite way with autonomous cars.....and then you have them Emotionless Vehicles (EV's) hype too...

 

[Sun Devil]

i do certainly hope it drives like a more powerful 86, that would be the best case actually.

but i beg to -somewhat- differ, if i may. Progress can also be made into making a car sensational and not electronically disconnected. i don't like to be mindlessly emotionally attached to a certain technology (like them 2jz fanboys yeehaw WTFOMGLOL...), but things like heavy iron blocks , usage of lighter alum. alloys with plasma wire coating is good progress. so is better composite synchro's on manual transmission and "rack type" electric power steering, which is basically a manual rack on feedback wise, with arguably better feedback than hydraulic ones. but all that is not the biggest problem with "progress" IMHO.

the problem is progress, mostly, is going the wrong way! with the bigger portion of car makers R&D budget going into mainstream (more automated, numb/comfortable grocery geters) than anything to connect the driver to the car, heck they're going the opposite way with autonomous cars.....and then you have them Emotionless Vehicles (EV's) hype too...

I blame Tesla.

 

[Spilner]

You cannot compare Ferrari's strategy to any other vehicle on the planet....period. The reason being, is that Ferrari can get away with anything on any of their cars and their cars will always continue to sell like hot cakes because Ferrari is more than a sports car maker...they are a way of life for "that" clientele. Also, Ferrari is know as an F1 car maker, so if they come out with a gearbox made of gummy bears...and as long as it was derived from F1, they will have no problems selling it in their cars because it is of F1 standards. Toyota can't get away with things like that so easily, they need to be careful how they market this car and really figure out what the target clientele will be....Supra fanboys, mid-life crisis golfers, or true Toyota enthusiasts who know what a Toyota halo sports car should be?

[/QUOTE]
Ferrari may have F1, but Toyota has WEC as well as LMP1, I know Toyota is cursed at Le Mans but Ferrari isn't the only one with racing knowledge

 

[PerformanceSound]

Ferrari may have F1, but Toyota has WEC as well as LMP1, I know Toyota is cursed at Le Mans but Ferrari isn't the only one with racing knowledge

Do yourself a favor and NEVER compare Ferrari F1 or Ferrari in general to anything made by Toyota in public again....NEVER....that's free advice.

 

[Spilner]

Do yourself a favor and NEVER compare Ferrari F1 or Ferrari in general to anything made by Toyota in public again....NEVER....that's free advice.

Even the Ferrari 355?

 

[PerformanceSound]

Even the Ferrari 355?

Especially the 355!! Now before you go Google'ing Car & Driver circa 1994 "Supra vs. Ferrari 0-60 comparison", understand that Toyota has never and probably will never produce a Formula 1 or equivalent inspired sports car as compared to Ferrari. It's not because Toyota doesn't have the engineering or know-how, it is because Toyota will never get the return on a vehicle it will sell for $100k+....Ferrari can and does! They tried with the LFA, and what did that do for them?

You are still missing the big picture in all this....why do you think Toyota outsourced their assembly for the FT-1 to Magna Steyr?...why did they co-develop with BMW?...why did they co-develop with Subaru on the 86?....etc... Toyota doesn't have the money to invest in a new sports car from the ground up...I mean, they have the money, but the investment-to-return ratio would put a huge dent in their finances. Toyota is not looking to produce a world class sports car from scratch, they are simply creating something from a mold to take advantage of a small niche market (the hype that has been built up by the MKIV Supra since the early 2000's) and PROFIT off of it. It's all about maximizing profits and minimizing costs...that is the recipe for making money. Business 101.

Ferrari can make a car that costs $200k to produce and sell for $1million dollars and have a 2yr waiting list for it, because Ferrari knows that they can profit heavily on it...different markets, clientele, etc... So they don't need to outsource any engineering, assembly plants, etc... because they will PROFIT heavily from it no matter what they invest in R&D!!!! Toyota cannot get away with that no matter how many championships they win in LeMans, or whatever....heck, even if they win the next 10 Formula 1 championships, they still will not be able to sell a $100k+ car for the masses because the Toyota name doesn't hold the level of prestige and racing history that Ferrari does. That's just the way it is, and the way it will continue to be....not just Ferrari vs. Toyota, but Ferrari vs. every other car maker!!!

Bottom line, don't compare Ferrari to Toyota (no matter how much horsepower a 2JZ can make). Ferrari has established it's self as a world class supercar maker, Toyota has not! Let's hope the FT-1 will at least be tuner friendly, and not just a face-lifted BMW with weak bearings and constant check engine lights.

 

[A70TTR]

2) Word on the street is that BMW and Toyota had a lot of difficulties in the beginning of the project with team dynamics. Reading in between the lines, that probably meant both parties wanted control over the project and neither willing to relinquish control. They have since seemed to have sorted things out but that leaves you wonder. What if BMW strongarmed Toyota in this partnership. Toyota has always seemed to follow BMW's lead on a lot of things. Everything from benchmarking BMW during development to Lexus copying BMW's shift to inflating the numbers on the cars names on turbocharged cars ie. RC300 = 2 liter turbo & x40i = 3 liter turbo. What if Toyota ended up like Subaru in the FT86 and just went along with BMW's design decisions and we end up getting a Toyota Z4 rather than a Supra.

Since I have the facts around this information, I will go ahead and comment just to say that the Toyota engineering team has constantly clashed with BMW engineers since the beginning of the project, and while not as common at this stage the teams would frequently break into speaking Japanese and German amongst themselves.

Apparently the partnership with Subaru was FAR better with seamless communication and very little argument in the details once the initial designs were ironed out.

 

[Spilner]

[QUOTE="PerformanceThat's just the way it is, and the way it will continue to be....not just Ferrari vs. Toyota, but Ferrari vs. every other car maker!!!

Including Ford?

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