Why I'm NOT Hyped About The New Toyota Supra

diss7

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Toyota, you’ve lost my business.

Just having a wee rant.

I’ve wanted this Supra. Waited and waited and waited. All we get is a strip tease. “Oh look can see the headlights! Oh look now the door jambs”. But have put up with it. I’ve had every Toyota worth having from the 80s and 90s. And Lexus. Never anything Uber rare though, no 2000 GT or LFA. ISF was one of my favourite ever cars. Currently have 6 cars, 3 Toyotas. Landcruiser 100 series, GT86 with Lexus V8. TE27.

Only reason the other 3 aren’t Toyota is because I’ve been forced to buy elsewhere as no Toyota example comparable.
Suzuki Jimny as go anyway town runabout for wife.
Audi Allroad as wanted / needed premium 4wd wagon that wasn’t a truck.
Porsche 911 as no premium real sports car by Toyota / Lexus. RCF is a whale of a car.
Supra to replace the 911.

My point is, I feel like I’m as brand loyal and qualified for this Supra as I’m sure and aware some of you are. And yet, I’m so disappointed at how this Supra launch has been handled.

I took Audi to Archibald’s (local Audi and Porsche dealer) to get serviced a few weeks back. I have a good relationship there. Bought two Audi’s there, get 911 serviced there. They showed me their Carrera T in stock. Told me all about the upcoming 992. Far more than can be found online. I had expressed interest in 992 but I just can’t go ahead. Cost is high but justified I think. It’s the image a 911 has in a small town. Which is why I’m replacing the current one.

Last week, I was contacted by BMW dealer. I’ve been cross shopping the supra against the M2 competition. Supra is basically a BMW anyway. But has the better M division bits and MANUAL! And from what I understand, very little price delta. I stewed on a M2C for a long time, but didn’t go ahead because of the colour selection. Anyway, this call was telling me all about the M2CS/L. A car that doesn’t officially exist. But they found out about it, and contacted me because they know it comes in two colours I like (grey and dark blue fwiw).

My point is this. I’m far from a VIP or anything special to either of these dealers. I’ve done some business with Archibald’s. But it’s sub $300kNZD all up. Nothing compared to what it takes to get a GT3 allocation for example.

And yet both these brands, have treated me far differently than Toyota is. I even went as far as to offer to sign a confidentiality agreement, just to find out more info on the Supra. But nothing.

I feel like Toyota have a lot to learn if they’re going to compete with these premium brands.

I wanted a Supra. I was going to overpay for it (in the sense it’s basically a hotted up 3 series mechanically, but priced closer to the M specific BMW cars. )

I was going to accept it was auto only even though I really wanted a manual.

To this day (correct me if I’m wrong) we don’t even know what power the car will have, officially what colours or trim, what price, or even when it will be available.

I realise that I’m coming across as a whinger. Maybe I am. But I’m the market; or at least a segment of it.

But it’s the way we’ve been treated with this car that has completed turned me away from it. At this point I don’t care if it’s $80kNZD.

I confirmed on a M2 Competition on Friday. Got $10k off RRP (good luck getting that with Toyota and their no haggle dribble now) <Note this is a NZ thing where Toyota are trialing a no negotiation on price approach>
I settled on a colour I’m not in love with, but managed to negotiate a guaranteed allocation on a M2CS/L and the price that I’ll pay (agreed adjustment on the RRP when announced) as a contractual condition of my M2C purchase.

BMW didn’t win my business. Toyota lost it.

Toyota only want to sell Hiluxs, Corollas and Prados to people that won’t haggle, because they can’t haggle; because they think that brand loyalty is blind. And to a certain extent it is, but It’s hard to push brand loyalty when you need BMW and Subaru to build your sports cars for you.

With all that said, I do hope that the Supra ends up being a great car for those that go ahead with it.
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diss7

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BRX

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I'm in the same boat as you but I'm still giving Toyota the benefit of the doubt as I'm in no rush. We still have a glimpse of hope being we don't know every single detail. If it turns out to be a meh car, I'm simply going with the LC/LCF. I just want a reliable GT car as my collection consists of 2 highly modified cars, a classic and a full size truck, all of which are Toyotas.
 

Galerion

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And to a certain extent it is, but It’s hard to push brand loyalty when you need BMW and Subaru to build your sports cars for you.
I won't go into the rest of your rant but I will say something about this. Toyota doesn't need anyone to do something. See the LFA for that. A pure performance machine and probably the best sounding car in the world.
But you know what? They lost money on that car. Yes they lost money on a $400K car. That's how high production and development costs are for these kind of things.

You want to know something else? Porsche the world famous sports car maker was on the verge of bankruptcy in 2009. Why? Because making sports cars is not a profitable business. They had to sacrifice what they stand for and make stuff like the Cayenne, Macan and Panamera to become profitable again. There is also a reason why they and others like Ferrari and Lamborghini aren't even totally independent companies anymore. They simply can't afford that.

Toyota on the other hand is one of the biggest car makers in the world and you know how they managed that? By making good business decisions and not bad ones. Since making sports car is a losing business as we have already established that means production and developments costs need to be lowered so it becomes profitable. If partnering up with somebody else to do that turns a bad business decision into a good one than that's the way to go.
It's either that or nothing. You don't have to like it but that's the reality we are in.

And if you are thinking well how come BMW can make something like an M2 well there is a good reason for that. Because the M2 is nothing more than a beefed up 2 series BMW. Something that I can find on every corner here in Germany. It's the same principle as a Hot Hatch. You take your basic economy car and put performance parts in it. Costs are lower because the base is already there and the droves of people buying that base are the ones who finance your further development.

The Supra on the other hand will be a standalone sports car. It doesn't share its base with any other Toyota. There is no base version of it that normal people will buy in droves. That's the big difference between it and all the hot hatches, AMGs, M-models, RS-models, F-models, etc.
And in case you haven't noticed without Toyota BMW wouldn't have made a new Z4 either because of this. The guys over there don't do bad business either.
 

BRX

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I won't go into the rest of your rant but I will say something about this. Toyota doesn't need anyone to do something. See the LFA for that. A pure performance machine and probably the best sounding car in the world.
But you know what? They lost money on that car. Yes they lost money on a $400K car. That's how high production and development costs are for these kind of things.

You want to know something else? Porsche the world famous sports car maker was on the verge of bankruptcy in 2009. Why? Because making sports cars is not a profitable business. They had to sacrifice what they stand for and make stuff like the Cayenne, Macan and Panamera to become profitable again. There is also a reason why they and others like Ferrari and Lamborghini aren't even totally independent companies anymore. They simply can't afford that.

Toyota on the other hand is one of the biggest car makers in the world and you know how they managed that? By making good business decisions and not bad ones. Since making sports car is a losing business as we have already established that means production and developments costs need to be lowered so it becomes profitable. If partnering up with somebody else to do that turns a bad business decision into a good one than that's the way to go.
It's either that or nothing. You don't have to like it but that's the reality we are in.

And if you are thinking well how come BMW can make something like an M2 well there is a good reason for that. Because the M2 is nothing more than a beefed up 2 series BMW. Something that I can find on every corner here in Germany. It's the same principle as a Hot Hatch. You take your basic economy car and put performance parts in it. Costs are lower because the base is already there and the droves of people buying that base are the ones who finance your further development.

The Supra on the other hand will be a standalone sports car. It doesn't share its base with any other Toyota. There is no base version of it that normal people will buy in droves. That's the big difference between it and all the hot hatches, AMGs, M-models, RS-models, F-models, etc.
And in case you haven't noticed without Toyota BMW wouldn't have made a new Z4 either because of this. The guys over there don't do bad business either.
We've been through this argument plenty on this forum. If Toyota can afford Lexus, they can afford an in-house built Supra using the same logic you mentioned above. Just like the SC300 and the MKIV before, The MKV could have been joint together with the RC-F/LC.

Now you're gonna say that their platform isn't as rigid and they're heavy, right? Well if they were designed and built together from the beginning and kept it all in Japan I'm pretty sure the production would have been more expedite. For the sake of this argument, the RC-F came out in 2014, the LC in 2017 and the MKV 2019. If the MKV was co-developed with the LC at least, we would have a Supra since last year or this year at most.

They could have easily developed them together to be lighter, more rigid and supporting the same powertrain (TT V6 from the LS500 or the upcoming LC-F engine). If I showed you a picture of the LC back in 2012 with Toyota badges, what would you think it would be? I'm pretty sure everyone would think its the new Supra.

Toyota did NOT need BMW, for some reason an Inline 6 was so important to the enthusiast they met with that Toyota forgot everything else good about the MKIV and didn't want to fork out a couple of billion dollars for a single engine for a single platform in their line up. That is the ONLY conclusion that would justify this joint venture.
 

Sammy82

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I got fed up too and bought a mint mk4 Supra from Japan for probably close to the same price as this new Supra would have been...and I’m not regretting it.
 

corry29

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@Galerion yes, we understand the business part. But it’s how Toyota chose the collaborate with other companies.

In my opinion, this is how the Toyota/BMW collaboration should be done. Both companies work together on structuring the frame and underpinnings of the car. Same body design except for the difference of a convertible and a hard top. Redesigned front end and rear end to distinguish between a BMW and Toyota. And then BMW source their given b58 to their variant, and then TOYOTA SOURCE THEIR OWN I6 TT engine TO THEIR OWN VARIANT.

That’s how it should be done.

To me, this is how the collaboration actually went between Toyota and BMW. Tada went to BMW hq, and went car shopping at all their 2 door models, the m4, the m6 and the z4. And then he chose the z4, and proceeded to have a business meeting with BMW to get approval from BMW to slap on Toyota badges and a Supra name on it. Oh and the biggest thing! To get approval to redesign the front end and rear end and add a roof, and minor changes to the body panels.

But honestly, to @diss7 , I think for you, it’s just timing. Seems like you need a car NOW as we speak. But the Supra is not even out yet. I mean until the car is out, and then if Toyota was not able to come through, then that’s different. But the car is not even out yet man, haha
 

justbake

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FWIW, Id take the 4cyl and 6cyl Supra over the 4cyl and 6cyl RC any day since Lexus is really far behind compared to its competition when it comes to performance.

The Lexus V8 is great but it is a tough call if Id take it over the B58. On paper, they are 100hp apart but the B58 is underrated from factory while the IS/RC/GS F puts down 360-380hp at wheels depending on dyno. Also it is important to note the Z4 B58 only makes 20lb-ft of torque less with 2.0L to play with while also having more power under the curve. And this is stock for stock, the B58 has a great deal of tuning potential since it is turbo changed from factory.

The V35a is a different animal but we will have to wait until Lexus expands the platform to more models.
 
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Craigy

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Yeah we've gotten a hugely hyped, years-long-drawn out rollout of what will ultimately be a real yawner of a sporty car, designed and produced by another manufacturer.

But it's got that 90s Supra badge and some other nonfunctional styling cues that have been deemed acceptable by various Toyota committees.

:cry:
 

Matador

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V35a is cool for what it is, but the real interest should in what follows developing that architecture further :)
Might there be a V8TT or is that out the window? Was any of the work done on the TMG650 used in the design of the V35a?
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