Guesses on CHP? Is Toyota Sandbagging? (Is the Supra faster than they say?)

Bryster

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Since the Supra has 335RWHP
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Jeff Lange

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I don't think any commoner knows exactly what the RWHP will be for the Supra yet.

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mas921

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If it turns out to be the case (and i trust A70 on this!) I say between 385-400CHP
 

Krister

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Advertised hp is 335hp from the crank. I think only the dynos in the States will dyno the same in WHP. ;)
 

MT6

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I'd say crank hp is even lower than that.
 

justbake

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Did they say that it makes 335 wheel horsepower or did they say "the motor sends 335hp to the wheels?"
 
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Turbro

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No manufacturer ever releases numbers @ the wheels. Its always been crank hp. They say 335hp (crank) official.

BUT if you understand the german manufactures, they ALWAYS underrate their engines. I am guessing this car dynos at 320ish whp and around 360/370 crank hp
 

Illsic_Design

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No manufacturer ever releases numbers @ the wheels. Its always been crank hp. They say 335hp (crank) official.

BUT if you understand the german manufactures, they ALWAYS underrate their engines. I am guessing this car dynos at 320ish whp and around 360/370 crank hp
Exactly this. As I said in another thread, it has been common practice for BMW's turbo engine output numbers to actually be VERY close to what it makes in WHP as seen over the last 10 years of dyno'ing BMW turbo engines.
 

JDMMA70

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This looks like a good topic as any for a first post.

If it does indeed make around 335 wheel and we assume a 20% drivetrain loss, then somewhere around 400 crank hp is reasonable.
 

kona61

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So, I was just sitting over here thinking. A lot of the information we have heard over the past couple years seems to be conflicting at release. From prior claims that the Supra would make 380 to 335, that it would be iron or aluminum, it seems that a lot of things don't quite line up.

At this point, we basically know that the engine is a B58 variant of some kind. However, it seems odd that they rate it at 335, don't you think? For all their claims of custom tuning and from-scratch engine calibration, it seems odd that they would say it only makes as much horsepower as B58's from 4 years ago. This is especially interesting considering the Supra's engine is the updated architecture which has such changes as hugely increased fuel pressure abilities, a new turbo, a new head, and a revised rear timing chain. All of these changes and yet it still makes the same power? Similarly, if we look at specs, it would seem the new Supra makes very similar torque number to the Z4, yet less power? That seems odd because horsepower is simply a function of torque, and I highly doubt that Toyota would neuter their top end torque simply to reel in peak horsepower unless BMW forced their hand. Also, it is important to realize that BMW has in way been disconnected from Toyota's tweaks to their engine. It has been years since the development teams talked, so I wouldn't be surprised if they had no actual data on Toyota's B58 and the numbers it produced.

This got me thinking: Hasn't there been other situations where Toyota had a horsepower limit imposed upon them? Oh right, the 90's, when our lord and savior, the great MKIV Supra was born. A car that was supposedly limited to "276" horsepower, yet actually made quite a bit more.

So I don't really have any cold-hard evidence, and I could just be a hopeless Supra fanboy, but to me it seems there is a good chance the Supra will surprise us all. I assume that BMW probably forced Toyota into lowering their horsepower rating below the Z4. So, in order to bypass this Toyota simply lied. All they have to do is say it makes "335" and the Youtubers, Instagrammers, etc. can let the dyno speak for itself.
 

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I liked someones theory on here that Toyota didn't know that BMW was coming out with 382 hp, and thought it would stay 335. So Toyota didnt focus on it more than 335, BUT probably bumped it up a little "unofficially behind the scenes" thinking they could outsmart BMW a little.

But I think it backfired because BMW came out at 382 and I truly dont think Toyota knew that was going to happen. I think now they are going to scramble around a bit and up it by the next model year to compete on the brochure.
 

kona61

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I liked someones theory on here that Toyota didn't know that BMW was coming out with 382 hp, and thought it would stay 335. So Toyota didnt focus on it more than 335, BUT probably bumped it up a little "unofficially behind the scenes" thinking they could outsmart BMW a little.

But I think it backfired because BMW came out at 382 and I truly dont think Toyota knew that was going to happen. I think now they are going to scramble around a bit and up it by the next model year to compete on the brochure.
I think that is a good theory, but I imagine they had some inkling as BMW developed the B58TU and I assume they had horsepower targets for their next car. However, I am curious if that is the correct version of the story, would @A70TTR have any input?
 

MA617M

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I find it interesting that the TRD/Gazoo WRC race 2litre turbo also has an integrated exhaust manifold.

Maybe Toyota's involvement reached the whole B58 line, and directly influenced some of the changes in the TU update?
 

JustACasual

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I find it interesting that the TRD/Gazoo WRC race 2litre turbo also has an integrated exhaust manifold.

Maybe Toyota's involvement reached the whole B58 line, and directly influenced some of the changes in the TU update?
What changed with TU, again? I had the PDFs, but haven't looked at them recently.
 

MT6

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That's exactly the question I asked myself yesterday. If Toyota did their own engine tuning, what the hell were they doing? :rolleyes:

Honestly the story about them splitting up is BS. I kinda believe the BMW side of the story: Toyota ordered a sports car from them and they delivered. It makes sense not only because of R&D, suppliers and production, but also because (almost) all Supra test mules were run by BMW. They must have restricted the Supras power output, along with other things (older Idrive, switches, steering wheel etc.)
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