The Supra B58 engine has potential (440whp/460wtq)

Australian of The North said:

Moreover , given an A80 TT6 would cost you a fraction the price of a new A90, then surely it would be a far superior option with all the excess funds you would have put into a well established and proven platform. Why spend all that huge money on a A90, when you could take an A80, and make it monster in power and handling that no A90 will ever touch for remotely the same price.

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Have you even looked at a80 prices lately?

BrettS said:

Have you even looked at a80 prices lately?

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Around $500,000...

https://jalopnik.com/the-1994-toyota-supra-that-sold-for-121-000-on-bring-a-1831800363

factsaboutrats said:

Around $500,000...

https://jalopnik.com/the-1994-toyota-supra-that-sold-for-121-000-on-bring-a-1831800363

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Exponential Growth baby

Australian of The North said:

Few problems I see:

"flash the transmission and upped the amount of torque its clutch pack could take"
Exactly how? just software change, or was their part replacement/changes?
Whats the cost? Is is the same price as bring a 2jz up to 500RWHP?
Whats the reliability? Did the change mean the auto tranny and B58 will go pop within 20k miles?

I'm tempted to think that if your going to spend decent amounts, a 2JZ could be more cost effective, allowing bigger horsepower gains for less cost and higher reliability.

Moreover , given an A80 TT6 would cost you a fraction the price of a new A90, then surely it would be a far superior option with all the excess funds you would have put into a well established and proven platform. Why spend all that huge money on a A90, when you could take an A80, and make it monster in power and handling that no A90 will ever touch for remotely the same price.

Most of all, its a case of praying you can keep a warranty on an A90 after making any changes.

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Swapping a 2JZ into a modern car will never be cheap or easy. It requires a significant amount of development in order to decode the CAN systems on any modern OEM car. Pure Automotive's electronics package for the 86 is $6k and that's just for the ECU and harness. Swapping a built 2JZ in, with a trans, installing all the accessory components, then tuning is a $18-20k endeavor no matter how you look at it.

Also, perhaps A80s are cheap wherever you are, but any reasonably clean 6spd Supra in the states is ~45k, and that's for a 93-95 car with 80-100k miles which has been owned by two or three other questionable people. Then to build that for power properly is another $8-10k at the very minimum. Forged internals, machining work, fuel pump, injectors, fmic, turbo, manifold, ECU, clutch+flywheel, driveshaft, etc. That'll get you a reasonably reliable 600hp package, but you still have a car with the rigidity of a wet noodle compared to even a little entry level modern sports car like the 86. How do you fix that? Well, other than a full cage, there really isn't a way, and a full cage in a street car is asinine. Harness bars, the well known Do-luck cross brace, underbody braces, etc all help a bit, but they never really make the car properly stiff. I would certainly know, I've owned all of them. And we haven't even started on wheels and tires, brakes, suspension (stock suspension is obscenely softly sprung, and all stock supras have incredibly worn dampers), not to mention the common items that you'll definitely have to do like rear hubs, trans seal, etc.

In the end you end up with a car that isn't remotely stock, uses fairly expensive parts, and has a trans that costs your first born if you need a damn third gear synchro. And don't think that things don't break on Supras, I've owned 10, shit breaks all the time. They're old, that's just how it goes. Is it fun? Oh yes. But will it be as competent of a sports car as an A90? Definitely not. You cannot beat a modern chassis, especially one as well sorted as the A90s, especially at the price. Even going between my BRZ and Supra I was constantly surprised with just how much better of a chassis the 86 is, that is simply the result of progress.

Attached: a picture of one of my Supras doing what it does best: leaving my ass stranded. Because even quality, high-end aftermarket parts are still no match for OEM quality, and when almost everything is modified to make horsepower, shit tends to break when you drive it like it's meant to.

^^^
PFFT! Please! Everybody knows you just turn up the hidden boost knob to 11, enjoy your 1400whp and never look back.

*2000hp on stock internals bro

Rumor has it that the “GRMN” Supra will get the “S1” version of the B58 aka B58B30S1?....or so I hear. Don’t shoot me, im just the messenger .

I wonder what the differences are with the “S1” motors???

@A70TTR....any word on this?

Guff said:

You cannot beat a modern chassis, especially one as well sorted as the A90s, especially at the price. Even going between my BRZ and Supra I was constantly surprised with just how much better of a chassis the 86 is, thatis simply the result of progress.

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This is something I hear from mk4 owners often. A lot of this 'the mk4 has a wet noodle chassis' nonsense too. The thing you guys are missing, is MASS. The FRS wasn't exactly the first light, tight, fun to drive, rwd momentum car to ever come out, it just happened to be the first one Toyota has made since the last MRS rolled off the assembly line (and maybe the first one you've driven?).

Heres your quote from my perspective and about 15 years ago...

Even going between my AE86 and my mk2 Supra I was constantly surprised with just how much better of a chassis the 86 is, that is simply the result of packaging.

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My mk2 is a built autox monster, its light, torquey, responsive, super stiff and flat in the corners. I have better brakes, engine and suspension then a mildly built ae86, yet they frequently destroy me when they show up (with a decent driver anyways) and it has always amazed me how much fun they were behind the wheel. Same for every generation of Miata, MR2, etc. I have autoxed FRSs too and they are great cars, but they are just an old time honored formula done relatively well in this day and age. Their chassis isn't that much better then your a80, it's just that they're that much smaller and lighter. I owned a mk3 Targa once before experiencing a mk4 Targa, let me tell you, the mk4 is no wet noodle. Now the difference between those 2 chassis is some serious progress there. And I was always blown away with how much lateral grip mk4s could generate on street tires on track with their awesome double wishbone suspension.

The smaller size of the mk5 chassis is probably the best thing going for this car, it's too bad our version is so heavy. It should be quite an interesting car with some weight loss. But just being physically smaller, 50/50 weight balance out the door and a hundred pounds lighter then the a80 will certainly make it feel much better, even if it didn't have a stiffer, more modern chassis.

Guff said:

Swapping a 2JZ into a modern car will never be cheap or easy. It requires a significant amount of development in order to decode the CAN systems on any modern OEM car. Pure Automotive's electronics package for the 86 is $6k and that's just for the ECU and harness. Swapping a built 2JZ in, with a trans, installing all the accessory components, then tuning is a $18-20k endeavor no matter how you look at it.

Also, perhaps A80s are cheap wherever you are, but any reasonably clean 6spd Supra in the states is ~45k, and that's for a 93-95 car with 80-100k miles which has been owned by two or three other questionable people. Then to build that for power properly is another $8-10k at the very minimum. Forged internals, machining work, fuel pump, injectors, fmic, turbo, manifold, ECU, clutch+flywheel, driveshaft, etc. That'll get you a reasonably reliable 600hp package, but you still have a car with the rigidity of a wet noodle compared to even a little entry level modern sports car like the 86. How do you fix that? Well, other than a full cage, there really isn't a way, and a full cage in a street car is asinine. Harness bars, the well known Do-luck cross brace, underbody braces, etc all help a bit, but they never really make the car properly stiff. I would certainly know, I've owned all of them. And we haven't even started on wheels and tires, brakes, suspension (stock suspension is obscenely softly sprung, and all stock supras have incredibly worn dampers), not to mention the common items that you'll definitely have to do like rear hubs, trans seal, etc.

In the end you end up with a car that isn't remotely stock, uses fairly expensive parts, and has a trans that costs your first born if you need a damn third gear synchro. And don't think that things don't break on Supras, I've owned 10, shit breaks all the time. They're old, that's just how it goes. Is it fun? Oh yes. But will it be as competent of a sports car as an A90? Definitely not. You cannot beat a modern chassis, especially one as well sorted as the A90s, especially at the price. Even going between my BRZ and Supra I was constantly surprised with just how much better of a chassis the 86 is, that is simply the result of progress.

Attached: a picture of one of my Supras doing what it does best: leaving my ass stranded. Because even quality, high-end aftermarket parts are still no match for OEM quality, and when almost everything is modified to make horsepower, shit tends to break when you drive it like it's meant to.

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Well said...

What most people don’t understand is just how expensive; building, running, and maintaining a high HP older car can be.

The MKIV was never designed to be 1000hp capable....that’s why everything was overbuilt and as such the byproduct was that it ended up being able to handle 1000hp. In the 90’s, Japanese car makers overbuilt their turbo cars to avoid catastrophic failures from boost surges, detonation, and other unknowns that were prevalent in 90’s turbo cars. The only way they could do that was by making everything twice as strong. Remember, performance turbocharged cars were still coming into the scene at that time....technology for turbo dynamics and engines was not very advanced. If the turbo motor ran into detonation, put thicker rods and pistons. That was seriously their logic...i.e., GE vs GTE, etc...

The MKV is designed from the ground up to be a car that can handle way more power than it comes with from the factory, doing it in a lighter, stronger, and better handling chassis than the MKIV. So imagine what the byproduct of this car will be. 1000hp will not only be easier to attain, but will be safer and more confident for the driver. The fact that it has a stiffer chassis than an LFA means so much....I think so many people are overlooking this.

I think too many people are making too big of a deal of that...

And if building a 1000hp monster is your goal, don't get a mk5. The b58 may nicely and cheaply handle 2x the stock output, but you're dreaming if you think a BWM built aluminum block i6 is going to equal 2jz for high power applications.

SupraFiend said:

I think too many people are making too big of a deal of that...

And if building a 1000hp monster is your goal, don't get a mk5. The b58 may nicely and cheaply handle 2x the stock output, but you're dreaming if you think a BWM built aluminum block i6 is going to equal 2jz for high power applications.

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If you think the chassis doesn't matter then you are ignoring its key benefit. The chassis is what allows you to really dial in the car as a whole. If the platform sucks, the car as a whole suffers. Again, I think people are too focused on just going fast in a straight line. This car is honestly more focused on handling.

SupraFiend said:

I think too many people are making too big of a deal of that...

And if building a 1000hp monster is your goal, don't get a mk5. The b58 may nicely and cheaply handle 2x the stock output, but you're dreaming if you think a BWM built aluminum block i6 is going to equal 2jz for high power applications.

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You can’t say that though, because aluminum blocks today are not what they were even two years ago, let alone 20yrs ago. The R35 GTR stock aluminum block’s limit still hasn’t been defined. AMS has stated that 2000hp has become a “worrying” level for the VR38DETT but they haven’t definitely said it’s the limit. Have some faith....this is Toyota we are talking about here, they did their homework on this project no matter how “BMW it is.”

B58 is the next big HP monster. Wait and see...

SupraFiend said:

This is something I hear from mk4 owners often. A lot of this 'the mk4 has a wet noodle chassis' nonsense too. The thing you guys are missing, is MASS. The FRS wasn't exactly the first light, tight, fun to drive, rwd momentum car to ever come out, it just happened to be the first one Toyota has made since the last MRS rolled off the assembly line (and maybe the first one you've driven?).

Heres your quote from my perspective and about 15 years ago...



My mk2 is a built autox monster, its light, torquey, responsive, super stiff and flat in the corners. I have better brakes, engine and suspension then a mildly built ae86, yet they frequently destroy me when they show up (with a decent driver anyways) and it has always amazed me how much fun they were behind the wheel. Same for every generation of Miata, MR2, etc. I have autoxed FRSs too and they are great cars, but they are just an old time honored formula done relatively well in this day and age. Their chassis isn't that much better then your a80, it's just that they're that much smaller and lighter. I owned a mk3 Targa once before experiencing a mk4 Targa, let me tell you, the mk4 is no wet noodle. Now the difference between those 2 chassis is some serious progress there. And I was always blown away with how much lateral grip mk4s could generate on street tires on track with their awesome double wishbone suspension.

The smaller size of the mk5 chassis is probably the best thing going for this car, it's too bad our version is so heavy. It should be quite an interesting car with some weight loss. But just being physically smaller, 50/50 weight balance out the door and a hundred pounds lighter then the a80 will certainly make it feel much better, even if it didn't have a stiffer, more modern chassis.

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While I definitely agree that the mass plays a big role, and that the MKIV is hardly a wet noodle (it's fantastic, hence why I love them), the FRS/BRZ chassis is most certainly a big step forward in terms of design, especially when it comes to rigidity, and even more so when it comes to safety. Utilizing things like Subaru's ring-shaped-reinforcement frame in the pillars, greater sill thickness, a stronger firewall design, and even the lateral reinforcement structure of the floor pan are all things that take the BRZ (along with many modern cars) to torsional rigidity levels far greater than that of the MKIV Supra. The 86 platform is well into the 30,000 Nm/deg range, while the targa MKIV Supra is recorded at about 8,100 Nm/deg if my memory serves me correctly. For reference, an LFA is 39,130 Nm/deg, and this new MKV Supra is into the 40,000+ Nm/deg range, although I have not been given an official number yet. The difference in rigidity is massive, and that does indeed create a big difference in the efficacy of suspension/road handling, steering input/feel, etc.

That being said, the body in white of the Supra is pretty light too. As I've mentioned before the Japanese 4-cyl model weighs in at ~3100 lbs, which tells me that there's a lot of improvement to be made on the USDM model in terms of weight!

This B58 engine has incredible potential. I have a 2008 bmw 135i it has the N54 engine which is an older generation of their straight 6 turbo and with just bolt ons and a tune has 400hp and 425tq. This new engine is going to be able to put down major power with minor modifications and proper tuning.

IwantAsupra said:

This B58 engine has incredible potential. I have a 2008 bmw 135i it has the N54 engine which is an older generation of their straight 6 turbo and with just bolt ons and a tune has 400hp and 425tq. This new engine is going to be able to put down major power with minor modifications and proper tuning.

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It should really tell you something when the MKV in its base form has a better 0-60 than the LC at essentially half the price