šŸ‘£ Official: Toyota Announces Manual Transmission Supra!

Only interested if it comes in manual?


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SilverMk2

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The important question is does the firewall stamping have a spot to put the clutch master cylinder in? If they didn't plan that far ahead I doubt they ever intend to put a manual in it.
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Nurburgring

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I donā€™t think you could swap in a DCT. That is part that is too dependent on the motor, and Iā€™m sure it is nearly impossible to get it to work with a totally different motor.
It`s been done on several platforms. There are kits for DCT swaps on 2JZ: http://www.garagewhifbitz.co.uk/garage-whifbitz-7-speed-dct-gearbox-conversion.html


E30 M50 turbo with DCT:





This guy is swapping a DCT into his turbo Miata: https://www.instagram.com/harald_f/

DCT has been available for N55, S65 and S55 BMW engines, I`m guessing it should`t be that diffcult to swap into a B58. Now, for 99% of people it won`t make sense, I`m sure the ZF8HP will perform just fine. Just trying to understand the rationale for a sequential transmission idea from a known manufacturer.
 

Kleanish

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I hope the manual isn't limited to the GRMN version. I can only afford one car really, not a strict track warrior. Would like it to be not all racecar /:

but also have a manual.. (;
 

MA617M

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Serious question for the resident transmission expert: You mentioned your company was interested in the development of a true sequential transmission for the A90 platform. What advantages do you see in this, compared to a double clutch transmission swap from a M3/M4 that could (in my ignorant view) be in the same ballpark as far as performance & costs while retaining "streetability"? I`m guessing custom ratios and stupid hp capabilities?
Hi there!

I'll clarify - I work for a major racing transmission company, and I also have a small side business that I just develop cool stuff for supras called flammenwerks.

My plan is to get an A90 and develop parts and bits and Bobs for it (Ti exhausts, turbo manifolds etc) under flammenwerks.

My work has expressed interest in dropping one of our inline sequentials into the A90. I'll know more after a strategy meeting Friday.

Our transmission is recommended for racing only - the gears are straight cut, internal oil pump, drop gears for quick ratio change and our standard box is rated to 1000Nm, and the heavy duty being rated to 1400Nm. But you can Street them if you don't mind a bit of noise, and have an engine management system integrated to enable it. Physically the gears can shift of times to 16ms, but usually have to run a wider window in the engine management to ensure a good lifespan of the trans. Overall it's about 50-70ms shift event.

We also have a street sequential in the pipeline of project but it's a few years off.
 

Nurburgring

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Seriously cool. Thanks for the info.
 

Jeff Lange

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I'm quite skeptical of that Summer '19 timeline by Ultima, as they would have to make significant headway on decoding the entire CAN system in order to spoof the transmission control. And they probably aren't getting their car till June at the earliest anyways.

That being said Ultima does have a legit R&D team, so who knows. Either way I'm happy they're on board.
In my opinion, the better way to go is to work directly at the ECU programming end of it. If that is possible to the extent required (it may or may not be at this time), that is likely the way to go.

Trying to make the ECU think there's a transmission when there isn't should (in my opinion) be a last resort. That said, there are cases where that may make more sense. For example, even though my IS350 doesn't have a CEL and has full power, if you plug in a scanner, there are powertrain DTC's. The approach taken in my case is to have the ECU ignore the issue, not set a CEL, and not go into limp mode. If you need to pass an inspection that requires a scanner to be plugged in, that wouldn't work.

Another strategy I could get behind would be to get a compatible BMW ECU from a manual transmission powered B58 car, then retune/reprogram it with the Toyota parameters from the Supra B58.

I can think of a few ways to go about it, and I have, because if Toyota didn't do it, I was planning on it (albeit further down the road than Ultima). I don't want an aftermarket option to reduce pressure on Toyota, so I'm only really interested in the manual kit if Toyota won't do it themselves.

We'll see how the chips fall.

Jeff
 

KahnBB6

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Jeff, your thoughts on this make the most sense. And I read your build thread to learn how much work went into converting your 250 manual with 350 power. The posts on the ECU programming were enlightening.

I also hope Toyota releases their own manual version. If they donā€™t then what aftermarket options do exist will still be a near 100% grade uphill battle in strict smog test markets like California and a good many hopeful manual MKV owners will really have no choice but the automatic.
 

BRX

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I say it depends on how customizable the ECU is. The Denso ECU Toyota uses is extremely restrictive even after cracking it open. Some parameters can't even be changed or at least no one has figured out how. Sure you can adjust fueling and timing along with shift points but that's pretty much it. You can't even increase the idle RPM.

BMW ECU's I'm not familiar with and I'm not sure if they only control the engine/transmission or more stuff like the rear diff actuators/traction control/ABS/instrument cluster/etc.

If they only control the engine and transmission, then the swap will be relatively easy. As Jeff said, an ECU swap should do the job just fine. And if the cluster is like the one in the 86, it can be programmed to show the gears instead of the auto options (PRND).

My 3UR-FE swap in my 86 is using the J160/AZ6 transmission and it works fairly well with only a single issue. I can't increase the idle RPM, so once every few days or so it would stall when I press on the clutch after decelerating as the revs drop much faster with a heavy flywheel + pressure plate than the stock auto setup the 3UR is tuned for.

Everything else works like factory. Initially I had many DTCs but using the tuning software we have you can not only hide them but completely disable them. They don't show up at all with a scan tool.

If Ultima truly knows their stuff, they should be able to pull this off easily but this swap kit won't be cheap by any means. I suspect +15k for all the parts and a transmission if not more. I'd make sure someone is buying that ZF8HP for decent money before doing that swap.
 

HRTROB

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I wonder if the new Supra is already rigged to accept a manual in the future. When I converted my E46 to MT, everything was plug and play. Even the hole in the firewall for the clutch master cylinder line was already there, as was the nipple in the brake fluid reservoir. Brake/clutch pedal assembly was also plug and play
 

Jeff Lange

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I say it depends on how customizable the ECU is. The Denso ECU Toyota uses is extremely restrictive even after cracking it open. Some parameters can't even be changed or at least no one has figured out how. Sure you can adjust fueling and timing along with shift points but that's pretty much it. You can't even increase the idle RPM.
These things can be changed on the Toyota Denso ECU's, however people haven't spent the time needed to actually narrow down those pieces of the pie, because nobody cares to as far as I can tell. Everyone wants to be able to change the tuning maps and throttle response and nobody seems to look into things like how to adjust the cruise control allowable speeds, or transmission parameters, etc.

But the tools available can do it, we just need someone with the time and inclination (and skill) to actually find those tables/values stored in the data pulled from the ECU.

Jeff
 

SupraFiend

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Honestly IF Toyota and BMW don't deliver on a manual option, instead of putting all that R&D into making the b58 and chassis work with a manual, spend the time making a 2jzgte vvti with a t56 or cd09 work with the new Supra chassis instead. The b58 is a decent motor if you just want a new supra with a warranty, but that aluminum block with plasma iron coated bores is going to seriously cap the top end potential of this motor. Aristo 2jzgtes are currently cheap and plentiful and should be so for another couple years yet, but supply will certainly start to dry up soon (so stash one away now).
 

KahnBB6

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2JZ-GTE fully dressed long block supplies with ECUs and harnesses definitely wonā€™t remain as plentiful as they are now forever.

Following that with longer lead time will be the many 2JZ-GE long blocks, short blocks, etc. that can be fully built but maybe their supply is well enough for some time yet.

The trouble with swapping in any 2JZ though is that for anyone with an MKV in a super strict emissions locale (esp. California) you cannot legally install an engine system that is older than the model year of the chassis. I mean you can do it and there are builders and shops who will but for the average MKV owner in these places who plan to use their cars regularly on the road... that wonā€™t fly for long.

This is why itā€™s crucial that Toyota did all the work needed to take as many weak points as possible out of the B58 in any variant they will sell... and itā€™s also why itā€™s crucial that they sell their own manual variant, hopefully in significant numbers so that itā€™s not a near impossible road legal configuration for mere mortals to obtain and be able to use just like any of the MKVā€™s competitor cars that come with a factory manual transmission option.
 

SupraFiend

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All truth. But Vancouver Canada is probably not the only region that actually walked away from their annual emissions testing program. We had annual smog tests here for about 15 years and about 5 ago they completely shut it down because the average car on the road was now obd2 equipped, clean as a whistle and the program was costing us too much money to justify for the few cheaters it was still keeping off the road. Once electrics take over, no ones going to care what's under the hood of your dinosaur engine Supra.
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