Petition Against The 'Supra' Badge

SilverMk2 · Feb 8, 2019

Therealist said:
Where’s the proof that Toyota had any input on the chassis? It’s all BMW. BMW suspension, bmw active differential. BMW linkaging. There is no evidence at all that Toyota had any input into the chassis development.

Edit: to keep this on topic, for all the reasons stated so far I can actually understand why people would petition to removed the supra name. There is no innovation that the brand is known for. It doesn’t compete at the same level as it previously did either. This really is more of a Celica

I'm sure they spec'ed the roll bar, spring rates, dampers, etc to their likening, but the hard components are all of BMW origin. Same as the FR-s/86/BRZ were, but to even less of a degree. I'm sure the way this project went was Toyota came up with a list of requirements for what they wanted in the car BMW said that will be 300 million dollars and Toyota cut a check. That's the way it works on any engineering project. Toyota participated by reviewing the BMW work and OKing the development along the way. But at the end of the day it was 99.9% developed by BMW engineers and suppliers with a car built from components from BMW suppliers and assembled in a non Toyota factory in Europe. I wouldn't call that a Toyota. Sure Toyota had designers work the styling of all the surfaces and some minor tuning, but in the end its a Toyota styled BMW. Just me 2 cents.

DesmoSD · Feb 8, 2019

BigIan said:
New on here guys but are you all really slating a car that isn't even available to be slated yet?

That’s why I said we shall see. People are already classifying it as “the next 2JZ” when it hasn’t even been pushed to its max.

Kaizen · Feb 8, 2019

Therealist said:
Your very presumptuous reply is the problem with the staunch defenders of this car. I do in fact understand the complexities of car development. For a company that already has other existing platforms, saying they don’t know how to produce sports cars is misleading, let’s also not forget some of the talent that provide the MKIV still work with Toyota.

I didn’t say I had anything wrong with taking co developed or good quality parts and adding them to a car.

I have a problem with the whole car being BMW. All the way to the interior which is a mirrored 3 series interior. It’s ugly and lazy. Even the mirrors aren’t unique. How can you defend that?

You cannot compare the development of the 2JZ which as you correctly stated, stems from the 1JZ and 7M, which was co developed with YAHAMA (a Japanese company with Japanese ethos) to a German made BMW engine that has already had a spate of failures. They are so confident in this engine that’s it’s “detuned”

326hp was a lot for 1993. 335hp on a detuned engine is not.... it shows they don’t have faith in it’s reliabilty.

I didn’t want the 2JZ in the new supra. That attitude is moronic. It’s a 25+ year old design. I expected a Toyota produced, co designed engine that was more efficient. It didn’t need to be a straight 6 either. The Lexus V6 is more of a candidate than the B58 ever could be.

The getrag takes power but is it the best gearbox? No. I like it personally but there’s better. The ZF8 however is not it.

The brakes on the MKIV which held the record for best performance brakes on a production car for over 10 years... they were made by Toyota....

The chassis was the way it was because the engineers were told by the executive board they would have to use the soarer chassis. they did a damn good job considering that limitation and a stiff chassis is a good thing.

The B58 is an awful platform already. Look online at all the issues people are having with coolant loss.

The MKIV was decent on release. Stock it outperforms Porsche 911s and Ferrari 348s at a fraction of the cost.

The MKV cannot boast any of these claims at all. It has no ambition and shows. I don’t think there will be many high power B58s. There’s a reason everyone uses old tech for high power builds, it’s built better not cheaper.

I’m betting the Lexus platform will be better developed in future. The LC500 is more supra than this car ever will be. For a start the supra has always been a GT car not a sports car and that’s what the LC500 is

Why do you drive sports cars? :hmm:

It should be for the feeling above all else. The badge is irrelevant if the car 'feels' like a Supra (I6, RWD, Turbo). Names, logos are irrelevant when it comes to truly enjoying a sports car. Yes some auto manufacturers can make better cars than others, but what matters is what you feel when you're actually behind the wheel. B58 won Ward's best engine in recent years. Has to be good enough for that. At the end of the day it's still a combustion engine which has thousands of parts that can fail/wear over time. No such thing as a perfectly reliable combustion engine because of its nature. People just need to enjoy the last of the ICE era, be thankful sports cars are still made (especially at an affordable price).

Therealist · Feb 8, 2019

justbake said:
The interior is far from a 3 series, quit staring at the HVAC
Mirrors? Because all modern side mirrors looks so similar nowadays that them being exactly the same is so miniscule that no one would notice unless they were hunting for a reason/excuse to hate the car.

There more to performance than HP numbers. the 335hp car would even outperform the 467hp RC-F if lexus didn't change gearing to suit.

Read about those issues again. Theres no loss of coolant, the factory W2A intercoolers weren't bled properly from the factory. While I am not defending that oversight, it is not the motor's fault.

I understand why people make this claim, I truly do. But this is again more Facebook-meme logic. This claim can't be made without acknowledging the RC.

Come on. Really? Mirror the 3 series dash and it’s the same.

They could have made the mirrors unique. Look at Aston Martin. If they can do it. Anyone can do it

I’m not quite sure what you’re trying to state with the RCF. Both that and ge LC500 fit the supra philosophy much more closely.

How is this Facebook logic? It’s a known fact. why change what the name has always stood for? It’s never been a 2 seater sports car. That’s simply a fact.

Bryster · Feb 8, 2019

^not even remotely similar

BrettS · Feb 8, 2019

justbake · Feb 8, 2019

Therealist said:
Come on. Really? Mirror the 3 series dash and it’s the same.

They could have made the mirrors unique. Look at Aston Martin. If they can do it. Anyone can do it

I’m not quite sure what you’re trying to state with the RCF. Both that and ge LC500 fit the supra philosophy much more closely.

How is this Facebook logic? It’s a known fact. why change what the name has always stood for? It’s never been a 2 seater sports car. That’s simply a fact.

Paint me a picture of how they are the same because I am not seeing it. Actaully use photoshop or paint

They could have but again its a minuscule detail.

I am stating that a 335hp is as fast as a 467hp car thus making those numbers irrelevant.

It is facebook-meme logic because it is regurgitated logic. If you were to actually think of the logic on your own, you would have said the RC/RC-F. The LC is an SC, nothing supra about it.

Supra21 · Feb 8, 2019

Thank you @PerformanceSound

Opposed to individuals who've supposedly joined on Wednesday and draw up petitions based on internet hype, some of us have been following the development of this car since 2012 on this Forum. As said before, no one is forcing anyone to buy this car...so why piss on the parade for those who actually want to give this car an honest shot?! As was said before, if this will only "enhance the value of previous generations" you should be pleased with the "gold mine" upon which you sit. As said by @PerformanceSound , no manufacturer creates without collaboration...Toyota was modest enough to not hide it!
I wish some critics would just relax, and let this car live its course and allow it to be something that we are all hopeful for. What's the point of raising arms if you haven't even had first hand experience with the car thus far?!

Even Super Street had already begun to explore some aspects of the A90 and it hasn't even been released yet! There's potential...just shake hands with some patience!

PerformanceSound · Feb 8, 2019

Therealist said:
Your very presumptuous reply is the problem with the staunch defenders of this car. I do in fact understand the complexities of car development. For a company that already has other existing platforms, saying they don’t know how to produce sports cars is misleading, let’s also not forget some of the talent that provide the MKIV still work with Toyota.

I didn’t say I had anything wrong with taking co developed or good quality parts and adding them to a car.

I have a problem with the whole car being BMW. All the way to the interior which is a mirrored 3 series interior. It’s ugly and lazy. Even the mirrors aren’t unique. How can you defend that?

You cannot compare the development of the 2JZ which as you correctly stated, stems from the 1JZ and 7M, which was co developed with YAHAMA (a Japanese company with Japanese ethos) to a German made BMW engine that has already had a spate of failures. They are so confident in this engine that’s it’s “detuned”

326hp was a lot for 1993. 335hp on a detuned engine is not.... it shows they don’t have faith in it’s reliabilty.

I didn’t want the 2JZ in the new supra. That attitude is moronic. It’s a 25+ year old design. I expected a Toyota produced, co designed engine that was more efficient. It didn’t need to be a straight 6 either. The Lexus V6 is more of a candidate than the B58 ever could be.

The getrag takes power but is it the best gearbox? No. I like it personally but there’s better. The ZF8 however is not it.

The brakes on the MKIV which held the record for best performance brakes on a production car for over 10 years... they were made by Toyota....

The chassis was the way it was because the engineers were told by the executive board they would have to use the soarer chassis. they did a damn good job considering that limitation and a stiff chassis is a good thing.

The B58 is an awful platform already. Look online at all the issues people are having with coolant loss.

The MKIV was decent on release. Stock it outperforms Porsche 911s and Ferrari 348s at a fraction of the cost.

The MKV cannot boast any of these claims at all. It has no ambition and shows. I don’t think there will be many high power B58s. There’s a reason everyone uses old tech for high power builds, it’s built better not cheaper.

I’m betting the Lexus platform will be better developed in future. The LC500 is more supra than this car ever will be. For a start the supra has always been a GT car not a sports car and that’s what the LC500 is

Your very presumptuous reply is the problem with the staunch defenders of this car. I do in fact understand the complexities of car development. For a company that already has other existing platforms, saying they don’t know how to produce sports cars is misleading, let’s also not forget some of the talent that provide the MKIV still work with Toyota.

Once again, TOYOTA DID NOT DEVELOP THE MKIV BY THEMSELVES!!!! That "Talent" were a group of older engineers who in the 90's were in their 40's. Fast forward 20yrs+, most are either retired or are strictly focused on Lexus halo cars that won't be allowed anywhere near a Toyota badge...and if they were, internet gurus like yourself could not afford a car they would build badged a Toyota...non of us probably could (aka LFA).

I didn’t say I had anything wrong with taking co developed or good quality parts and adding them to a car. I have a problem with the whole car being BMW. All the way to the interior which is a mirrored 3 series interior. It’s ugly and lazy. Even the mirrors aren’t unique. How can you defend that?

Again, you are assuming the whole car is a BMW. Your against the car being co-developed (not identical to) with BMW, yet your perfectly fine with a MKIV being co-developed by YAMAHA, Brembo, Recaro, Getrag, etc... It is the same concept, just different vendors. That's like saying, I fucken hate Mercedes, but I love ABS in my MKIV Supra (Mercedes who invented ABS).

You cannot compare the development of the 2JZ which as you correctly stated, stems from the 1JZ and 7M, which was co developed with YAHAMA (a Japanese company with Japanese ethos) to a German made BMW engine that has already had a spate of failures. They are so confident in this engine that’s it’s “detuned”

Where is this exclusive data you collected coming from when the B58 iteration in the MKV hasn't even been reviewed by god himself? That's like me saying, the 2JZ in the IS300 when turbocharged is a piece shit at anything over 400hp, so that means the 2JZ in a MKIV Supra is as bad. Be logical.

326hp was a lot for 1993. 335hp on a detuned engine is not.... it shows they don’t have faith in it’s reliabilty.

320hp in the 90's was needed to propel a heavy sports car to 60 in 4.6sec. Today, you only need 10 more horses to propel a car to 4.1sec. Get it? If they were to put a 400hp version of a B58 in the MKV, it would be a sub 3sec car....at 400hp, while everyone else is making 650hp to get to sub 3sec. Get it??? Light bulb working yet?? Not to mention what the hell 400hp would do to insurance rates. Can your folks afford the payments for you?

I didn’t want the 2JZ in the new supra. That attitude is moronic. It’s a 25+ year old design. I expected a Toyota produced, co designed engine that was more efficient. It didn’t need to be a straight 6 either. The Lexus V6 is more of a candidate than the B58 ever could be.

My 2JZ comment was moronic??? Good lord.

The getrag takes power but is it the best gearbox? No. I like it personally but there’s better. The ZF8 however is not it.

Oh well, do tell professor....what is better? I would love to hear your alternative.

The brakes on the MKIV which held the record for best performance brakes on a production car for over 10 years... they were made by Toyota....

Ohhhh, you mean when Brembo's were only put on racecars in the 90's, so Toyota and other Japanese car makers were sourcing cheaper alternatives from Akebono and Sumitomo?? Yeah, held the record compared to what??? A Corvette of that era? Think for a sec.

The chassis was the way it was because the engineers were told by the executive board they would have to use the soarer chassis. they did a damn good job considering that limitation and a stiff chassis is a good thing.

So tell me again how Toyota knows how to build a sports car again??? How does that justify the Twizzler chassis the MKIV has?? Yet you still bitch that the MKV's stiffer chassis than an LFA is garbage. Right.

The B58 is an awful platform already. Look online at all the issues people are having with coolant loss.

Go back to the third comment above. Show me this classified data of the reliability testing you have on the B58 in a MKV Supra.

The MKIV was decent on release. Stock it outperforms Porsche 911s and Ferrari 348s at a fraction of the cost.

Well then Jeremy Clarkson, let's see some of your real world testing that you have that your so confident a MKV cannot go up against a Porsche.

The MKV cannot boast any of these claims at all. It has no ambition and shows. I don’t think there will be many high power B58s. There’s a reason everyone uses old tech for high power builds, it’s built better not cheaper.

Idiota!

I’m betting the Lexus platform will be better developed in future. The LC500 is more supra than this car ever will be. For a start the supra has always been a GT car not a sports car and that’s what the LC500 is

Okay poindexter!

Bryster · Feb 8, 2019

justbake said:
Paint me a picture of how they are the same because I am not seeing it. Actaully use photoshop or paint

They could have but again its a minuscule detail.

I am stating that a 335hp is as fast as a 467hp car thus making those numbers irrelevant.

It is facebook-meme logic because it is regurgitated logic. If you were to actually think of the logic on your own, you would have said the RC/RC-F. The LC is an SC, nothing supra about it.

No,no..he's right, they're very similar...even the differently shaped screens prove his point

Supra21 · Feb 8, 2019

Bryster said:
No,no..he's right, they're very similar...even the differently shaped screens prove his point

HVAC, preset buttons, radio, shifter, and I drive controller are components...all BMW yes!...But the layout is completely different lol...the AC vents are exactly those seen in a Camry!...last time I checked, that was still a Toyota :hmm:

justbake · Feb 8, 2019

Bryster said:
No,no..he's right, they're very similar...even the differently shaped screens prove his point

The straight divider in the supra and the curved one in the BMW are definitely it!

Supra21 said:
HVAC, preset buttons, radio, shifter, and I drive controller are components...all BMW yes!...But the layout is completely different lol...the AC vents are exactly those seen in a Camry!...last time I checked, that was still a Toyota

Have you seen the new 3 series interior? it looks exactly like the Camry

Supra21 · Feb 8, 2019

BrettS said:

Agreed!

kona61 · Feb 8, 2019

Therealist said:
Your very presumptuous reply is the problem with the staunch defenders of this car. I do in fact understand the complexities of car development. For a company that already has other existing platforms, saying they don’t know how to produce sports cars is misleading, let’s also not forget some of the talent that provide the MKIV still work with Toyota.

I didn’t say I had anything wrong with taking co developed or good quality parts and adding them to a car.

I have a problem with the whole car being BMW. All the way to the interior which is a mirrored 3 series interior. It’s ugly and lazy. Even the mirrors aren’t unique. How can you defend that?

You cannot compare the development of the 2JZ which as you correctly stated, stems from the 1JZ and 7M, which was co developed with YAHAMA (a Japanese company with Japanese ethos) to a German made BMW engine that has already had a spate of failures. They are so confident in this engine that’s it’s “detuned”

326hp was a lot for 1993. 335hp on a detuned engine is not.... it shows they don’t have faith in it’s reliabilty.

I didn’t want the 2JZ in the new supra. That attitude is moronic. It’s a 25+ year old design. I expected a Toyota produced, co designed engine that was more efficient. It didn’t need to be a straight 6 either. The Lexus V6 is more of a candidate than the B58 ever could be.

The getrag takes power but is it the best gearbox? No. I like it personally but there’s better. The ZF8 however is not it.

The brakes on the MKIV which held the record for best performance brakes on a production car for over 10 years... they were made by Toyota....

The chassis was the way it was because the engineers were told by the executive board they would have to use the soarer chassis. they did a damn good job considering that limitation and a stiff chassis is a good thing.

The B58 is an awful platform already. Look online at all the issues people are having with coolant loss.

The MKIV was decent on release. Stock it outperforms Porsche 911s and Ferrari 348s at a fraction of the cost.

The MKV cannot boast any of these claims at all. It has no ambition and shows. I don’t think there will be many high power B58s. There’s a reason everyone uses old tech for high power builds, it’s built better not cheaper.

I’m betting the Lexus platform will be better developed in future. The LC500 is more supra than this car ever will be. For a start the supra has always been a GT car not a sports car and that’s what the LC500 is

Look, it is so short-sighted to assume the B58 is a crap motor. It isn't and that is the truth. I have friends with B58's and I had a S55, and at a number of varied miles, none have any issues. I never had any warranty issues, and the car never lost coolant or oil.

Similarly, the Lexus V35 is not a performance motor. It is open deck, and I doubt the internals are very strong. The B58 is fully forged and closed decked.

twntrbo03' · Feb 8, 2019

Bryster said:
^not even remotely similar

LOL I think you need to go get your eyes checked!

People want this car to be something it's not soooo bad that they are losing their vision. Denial is the fist step i suppose...

In all honesty I think this car will be great, but I am not sure the reliability is going to be there. If anything, just wait 3 or 4 years and you'll be able to pick one of these up for dirt cheap... just look at the current BMW market and how quickly they plunge in price. When it comes to the love/hate relationship with this car... I think most people have an issue with the overwhelming presence of BMW in a TOYOTA Supra. I mean, even down to the door chime is BMW. I'm a little bummed that there isn't more of a visual Toyota influence in this car and will just feel like sitting in another Beemer with a Toyota skin. Regardless, I'm excited there is another sports car coming from Toyota, but they should have called it something else

Petition Against The 'Supra' Badge

SilverMk2

Member

DesmoSD

Well-Known Member

Kaizen

Well-Known Member

Therealist

Well-Known Member

Bryster

Well-Known Member

BrettS

Well-Known Member

justbake

Well-Known Member

Supra21

Well-Known Member

PerformanceSound

Well-Known Member

Bryster

Well-Known Member

Supra21

Well-Known Member

justbake

Well-Known Member

Supra21

Well-Known Member

kona61

Well-Known Member

twntrbo03'

Well-Known Member

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