My Supra Review

RyanGT3RS

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I'm sure the Supra has electronic steering but it's also FR. Does the steering get heavy when in sport mode?

From my experience, Porsche's just have that very short, sharp and direct steering wheel feel, even on the 991's. I have not driven a car that can mimic that steering response and feel like Porsche. Mine still has the hydraulic steering, so it's more of raw.

https://www.pistonheads.com/features/ph-features/porsche-and-the-death-of-steering-feel/26213
X2.
it's very un-mercedes - it's very good. Ratio is 13:1, nice weighting, very good feedback. communicates a lot through the wheel - I'd say far better than any supra (A60/A70/A80). probably on par with Renault Megane RS265.... but less jittery due to tyres/suspension tune.

That’s real sharp. I’ve driven the AMG GTS and GTR, same goes for that car. Night and day compared to many of the other and past Mercedes.

How about compared to the BMW’s of yesteryear? I think the e46/e90, 1M, are the pinnacle of bmw steering. They cannot replicate that after going electric
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kona61

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X2.



That’s real sharp. I’ve driven the AMG GTS and GTR, same goes for that car. Night and day compared to many of the other and past Mercedes.

How about compared to the BMW’s of yesteryear? I think the e46/e90, 1M, are the pinnacle of bmw steering. They cannot replicate that after going electric
E46 is good, E90 is pretty numb in my opinion. Never driven a 1M so I can't comment.

I think the problem is not that they can't replicate it, it's that they choose not to. Many customers have complained that they don't like much vibration coming through the steering, and enthusiasts don't make up enough of their customer base to have them retain the same feel.
 

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X2.



That’s real sharp. I’ve driven the AMG GTS and GTR, same goes for that car. Night and day compared to many of the other and past Mercedes.

How about compared to the BMW’s of yesteryear? I think the e46/e90, 1M, are the pinnacle of bmw steering. They cannot replicate that after going electric
One of my dream cars has always been an E90 LCI with a V8, although my pockets aren't ready for that one
 

RyanGT3RS

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E46 is good, E90 is pretty numb in my opinion. Never driven a 1M so I can't comment.

I think the problem is not that they can't replicate it, it's that they choose not to. Many customers have complained that they don't like much vibration coming through the steering, and enthusiasts don't make up enough of their customer base to have them retain the same feel.
The E90 3 series I find good, but the M3 is a bit different, in a way more like how bmw does steering now but still better. Lighter feel, builds up with speed, still hydraulic though. I actually prefer the regular 3 series when it comes to the e90.
 

AsupramkvC

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The automatic transmission shifts so perfectly I am not sure why you need a standard transmission.
It’s for pure driver involvement. That’s what purists want and need. Rowing your own gears is something that feels very rewarding if you know how to do it properly. It’s fun!
 
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s219

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It’s for pure driver involvement. That’s what purists want and need. Rowing your own gears is something that feels very rewarding if you know how to do it properly. It’s fun!
And it's fun at all speeds, whether you are driving hard or not. With the ZF8, it's only cool (to me) when you really get on it. I think it's the best automatic I have experienced on any car, but still an automatic.

I didn't get a chance to try this in the Supra, but on other ZF8 BMWs I have owned, if you slide the shifter to the left (but do not make manual shifts), that will put the transmission in its own sport mode, which is independent of the throttle's sport mode. That will make shifts much quicker and more abrupt. Then if you also put the throttle into sport mode (so now throttle and transmission are both in their own sport modes) the shifts are insanely quick and abrupt, almost harsh, but really amazing. That is where the ZF8 really comes alive and enters DCT territory. But if you're just driving around normally, it's really not practical or useful.
 

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And it's fun at all speeds, whether you are driving hard or not. With the ZF8, it's only cool (to me) when you really get on it. I think it's the best automatic I have experienced on any car, but still an automatic.

I didn't get a chance to try this in the Supra, but on other ZF8 BMWs I have owned, if you slide the shifter to the left (but do not make manual shifts), that will put the transmission in its own sport mode, which is independent of the throttle's sport mode. That will make shifts much quicker and more abrupt. Then if you also put the throttle into sport mode (so now throttle and transmission are both in their own sport modes) the shifts are insanely quick and abrupt, almost harsh, but really amazing. That is where the ZF8 really comes alive and enters DCT territory. But if you're just driving around normally, it's really not practical or useful.
Daily driving it, for sure the ZF8HP is the more practical choice. You can totally rest your left foot. The transmission has been used by a lot of premium automakers including Lamborghini, Bentley, and Rolls-Royce, to name a few. This transmission is the best in its class; and Toyota would’t have chosen it if it’s not reliable enough to their standards. But at the end of the day, if you want to truly enjoy your rear wheel drive sports car, there’s no better way than to work your way out, have full control of the car by driving one with a manual transmission gearbox.
 

SupraFiend

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I have to program the steering for sport+ on my two BMWs to get the feel I like. It's all artificial of course, since they are just dialing back the amount of power assist to make it feel firm.
But that's the primary way one goes about getting better steering feel, run the least amount of assistance possible. A manual rack is King in steering feel, everything else is a step back to some degree. A page back people were lamenting that no Supra or BMW they could think of had steering feel on par with a 911 or Cayman, but that's one of the advantages of a rear or mid engine layout, minimal mass on the front axels requires minimal (or no, assistance) and less so Porsche's wizardry. My race mk2 Supra with a built NA 6m and a fully depowered rack has amazing steering feel, a world of difference from stock and stock was really good to start with. But its definitely too much for parking and slow speed stuff with that iron i6 there.

Of course today we have cars that can self steer. Not sure if any of s219's BMWs do that, but as soon as the steering wheel and the rack are no longer rigidly mechanically connected, then it is most certainly artificial at that point. Electric assist on traditional steering columns/racks can net decent results now, but the future is pretty bleak for steering feel with the advent of self parking and driving capable cars.
 

kona61

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The E90 3 series I find good, but the M3 is a bit different, in a way more like how bmw does steering now but still better. Lighter feel, builds up with speed, still hydraulic though. I actually prefer the regular 3 series when it comes to the e90.
I honestly can’t remember if my 335i or M3 felt any different lol.
 

kona61

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But that's the primary way one goes about getting better steering feel, run the least amount of assistance possible. A manual rack is King in steering feel, everything else is a step back to some degree. A page back people were lamenting that no Supra or BMW they could think of had steering feel on par with a 911 or Cayman, but that's one of the advantages of a rear or mid engine layout, minimal mass on the front axels requires minimal (or no, assistance) and less so Porsche's wizardry. My race mk2 Supra with a built NA 6m and a fully depowered rack has amazing steering feel, a world of difference from stock and stock was really good to start with. But its definitely too much for parking and slow speed stuff with that iron i6 there.

Of course today we have cars that can self steer. Not sure if any of s219's BMWs do that, but as soon as the steering wheel and the rack are no longer rigidly mechanically connected, then it is most certainly artificial at that point. Electric assist on traditional steering columns/racks can net decent results now, but the future is pretty bleak for steering feel with the advent of self parking and driving capable cars.
The self steering is done using the assist motor on the rack. The wheel and rack are still connected and will turn together.

The only car without a physical connection is the Infiniti Q50/60.
 
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s219

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Supposedly my X3 M40i can self-park but I have never used the feature because I've heard it's comically bad and it's not going to really save me time anyhow. So it seems like it has self-steering capability. I don't think there is a decoupling in those systems, since you still need redundancy to be able to steer the vehicle if power cuts out. So I am pretty sure there is still a direct mechanical connection between the steering wheel and the rack. Most likely they use a motor to turn the wheel for self-steering and it could be part of the power assist system or separate.

There was a big loss in steering feel when BMW went from hydraulic power steering to electric power steering. Whatever feedback and feel that was still present with hydraulics went away with the change to EPS. You can dial back the amount of assist with EPS to firm up the wheel and make it more sporty, but it doesn't bring back feel or feedback from the tires. It's very artificial to me.

Car and Driver had a real good article about steering feel in BMWs with EPS, covering why it became a problem and describing how BMW attempted to remedy and improve it in later generations. A google search ought to turn it up. This has been an ongoing issue for BMW. I like to point out that Honda had great feel with EPS all the way back in 1999 when it debuted on the S2000. That was one of the early vehicles to bring EPS to the market and they somehow got it right from the get go. Years later this is still a challenge for BMW.
 

SF186

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I don't know if they inherited this from BMW, but the power steering feel in my X3 M40i and M2 is still to light for my taste in comfort and sport modes. I have to program the steering for sport+ on my two BMWs to get the feel I like. It's all artificial of course, since they are just dialing back the amount of power assist to make it feel firm.
Electric steering in general is just kind of a bummer, but Porsche seems to get it a tad better if you've driven a Cayman than what the Supra currently has and I know they benchmarked against the Cayman. I think the M2C improved a bit more on steering than the regular M2 for BMW and it is definitely better than the M-lights. I hope my review echoed yours in that I do really like the Supra and I know it is catching a ton of flack, but I think it's largely unwarranted however there is some truth behind the criticisms.
 

RyanGT3RS

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Supposedly my X3 M40i can self-park but I have never used the feature because I've heard it's comically bad and it's not going to really save me time anyhow. So it seems like it has self-steering capability. I don't think there is a decoupling in those systems, since you still need redundancy to be able to steer the vehicle if power cuts out. So I am pretty sure there is still a direct mechanical connection between the steering wheel and the rack. Most likely they use a motor to turn the wheel for self-steering and it could be part of the power assist system or separate.

There was a big loss in steering feel when BMW went from hydraulic power steering to electric power steering. Whatever feedback and feel that was still present with hydraulics went away with the change to EPS. You can dial back the amount of assist with EPS to firm up the wheel and make it more sporty, but it doesn't bring back feel or feedback from the tires. It's very artificial to me.

Car and Driver had a real good article about steering feel in BMWs with EPS, covering why it became a problem and describing how BMW attempted to remedy and improve it in later generations. A google search ought to turn it up. This has been an ongoing issue for BMW. I like to point out that Honda had great feel with EPS all the way back in 1999 when it debuted on the S2000. That was one of the early vehicles to bring EPS to the market and they somehow got it right from the get go. Years later this is still a challenge for BMW.
There are great electric steering racks on a lot of cars, there’s no excuse for bmw. The Mazda Miata, 6, and CX5 all have great steering and feel. Don’t get why bmw can’t do it or refuse to do it.
 

kona61

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There are great electric steering racks on a lot of cars, there’s no excuse for bmw. The Mazda Miata, 6, and CX5 all have great steering and feel. Don’t get why bmw can’t do it or refuse to do it.
Because non car enthusiasts like their cars to be as numb and smooth as possible, including steering. That’s likely why BMW’s still weight up nicely and have pretty direct steering.
 
 




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