AT & MT Feedback Needed

KahnBB6

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^^ Is that not also because the STI 6-speed manual gearbox is heavier due to it being more stout? Also I believe that in the last few model years even standard WRX's now receive a variation of that same 6-speed gearbox. I may be mistaken but they seem to have left the remnants of the old split-case 80's 5-speed design in the past now. As a result overall weight of the standard new and new-ish WRX's has gone up a bit but reliability and durability of their non-STI 6-speed manuals has also improved.

Refocusing to the main topic points: traditionally manuals have been lighter than automatics and DCTs alike but perhaps those designs have become progressively lighter by MY2019+. Still, I would not mind such a slight increase in weight for what would be a part of a "grand touring" trim level of the Supra MKV.

Since a 6MT hypothetical model would be aimed squrely at those who WANT that manual shifting experience rather than all-out bleeding edge track performance I would not see a slight weight increase like that as being worthy of concern.

IF indeed the ZF8 or a DCT is lighter than a Supra B58 with a 6-speed manual gearbox then those buyers who would want the least amount of shift time, fastest acceleration, best possible on-track advantage, etc. can all opt for the ZF8 3.0L Supra Base, Premium and later the GRMN and GT4.

But a hypothetical yearly limited production Supra 3.0 6MT would appeal to those who, above all, want to really feel engaged with the car over all other considerations. Same reason that certain Porsche 911 models, Cayman models and BMW M-cars still offer manual transmissions despite the fast shifting and more race-competitive automatics being available.

Different types of buyers of sports cars have different tastes of how they want to interact with and use their sports cars. So long as we are not fully into electrification with these sports cars YET all can and do coexist :)

I'll add... IF the only way that a manual A90 could exist is with the 255hp 2.0L 6MT (SZ-R 6MT spec?)... then I would strongly consider that specification instead.

However... since the Supra's B58 engine has already been proving itself to be so good right out of the box in STOCK tune I would still be *much* more inclined towards a hypothetical premium-priced Supra 3.0L 6-speed manual model.

Toyota using whatever existing R&D there is from the EU/Germany only Z4 2.0T 6-speed M/T model combined with a stout BMW M3/M4 or M2 manual gearbox would fit the bill, I think?

Supra 3.0L + 6-speed manual at a premium price = done deal!

Supra 2.0L 255hp engine + 6-speed manual at whatever price presumably not as high as a top range 3.0L MKV = strong consideration considering you get the same great chassis, suspension, M-diff, big 3.0L brakes, etc. and manual plus would be able to tune that engine a bit as well.

But what we all truly want ideally, I would think, is a 3.0L + 6 speed manual MKV.

Again... for MAXIMUM track performance potential there is always the ZF8 auto, GRMN and GT4. The GRMN and GT4 will both sell at their *own* premium price points over the standard MKV's just as would a hypothetical Supra 3.0L + 6MT targeting yet another type of specific buyer.

A manual Supra 3.0L is simply another variant that appeals to those of us who are 100% okay with the limitations of a manual vs auto/DCT and prefer the joy of that transmission interface.

At the end of the day everyone here is interested in the Supra itself, its chassis, engineering, character, etc. Some of us simply want different tunes and interface options than others do. And all of these potential premium priced variations have their appeals and advantages for different intended uses of this sports car :)
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PerformanceSound

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Not to derail the thread talking about Subaru’s, but the WRX’s with the 6spd’s are basically the old 5spd’s with an extra gear. They are not very strong. Weight difference is negligible. The STI’s on the other hand have different gear sets, carbon synchro’s, beefier center section, and a host of other differences. VERY strong transmissions known to handle ~1000hp STOCK trans (see example link below @ 7:40). They truly are different transmissions....they take whatever you throw at them. It’s why WRX owner wants them for swaps.



You are correct though, because of the strength of the transmission, it weighs drastically more. That is why I believe a manual transmission for the MKV Supra will be a hefty one....Toyota will not put a “weak” manual trans behind that B58. Whether or not it will be a Getrag V160 equivalent in terms of load capacity, that is what we all are wanting to know.
 

KahnBB6

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^^ Thank you for clarifying that about the WRX/STI, PerformanceSound. I thought I had read that the old 80's 5-speed split-case roots had been abandoned but it sounds like the WRX's just got a major revision to that design. Reportedly the gearboxes are now more reliable and a bit stronger though?

The STI 6-speed manual trans is indeed known well for its strength and durability. No question there!

I think if hypothetically what ichitaka05 has put out as a hypothesis ever panned out we could expect at least the same strength as a BMW M3/M4 or M2 6-speed transmission. And that would be just fine with me given what people are known to throw at them. They are good manual transmissions and would fit the bill of what a tuneable 6-speed manual 3.0L Supra would be about.

If we got 6-speed Getrag V160/161 or 6-speed Tremec Magnum level strength and durability... even better!
 

PerformanceSound

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^^ Thank you for clarifying that about the WRX/STI, PerformanceSound. I thought I had read that the old 80's 5-speed split-case roots had been abandoned but it sounds like the WRX's just got a major revision to that design. Reportedly the gearboxes are now more reliable and a bit stronger though?

The STI 6-speed manual trans is indeed known well for its strength and durability. No question there!

I think if hypothetically what ichitaka05 has put out as a hypothesis ever panned out we could expect at least the same strength as a BMW M3/M4 or M2 6-speed transmission. And that would be just fine with me given what people are known to throw at them.

If we got 6-speed Getrag V160/161 or 6-speed Tremec Magnum level strength and durability... even better!
Yeah, I wanna believe that Tada’s primary reason for not deploying a manual this early in the game had to do more with overall performance more than actual ability to offer a manual (cost, etc...). Hence why he threw hints of “...if there is a demand.” In other words, I believe that Toyota is in a bind right now in that in order for the MKV Supra to be competitive in today’s market it MUST to do A-B-C at a certain level, and with a manual it poses a problem in that equation. That is why I strongly believe my source when he says, “the manual option won’t be aimed towards the track/performance enthusiast, but more towards the touring enthusiast.” It makes total sense because Tada and Toyota probably know that even the right manual transmission would cripple the MKV Supra in a very competitive arena (performance/cost). An auto Supra was the right move for initial launch because any other drivetrain offering would result in a slower and heavier Supra....yeah and for ~$60k??? See where that poses a problem for them? I think the internet would absolutely take a dump on the Supra had that been an option initially....in terms of performance figures (i.e., “omg, the MKIV Supra use to kill Vette’s with a manual back in the day, shame on you Toyota, blah blah blah). 20yrs ago, things were a little different....Corvette’s made ~300hp at best and weighed as much as a tank, so a 6spd Supra with 320hp didn’t matter because the car was technically more advanced than a Vette so either drivetrain option was acceptable because it could outperform in either trim. Today, that is NOT the case anymore....Corvette’s now have almost 500hp, weigh less, and cost as much as a Supra. I still believe a manual is coming but I completely understand why an auto was the only option at launch....and a manual will truly be for the drivers who enjoy rowing gears more than 1/4 times. Just my two cents :thumbsup:.
 
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Bryster

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Yeah, I wanna believe that Tada’s primary reason for not deploying a manual this early in the game had to do more with overall performance more than actual ability to offer a manual (cost, etc...). Hence why he threw hints of “...if there is a demand.” In other words, I believe that Toyota is in a bind right now in that in order for the MKV Supra to be competitive in today’s market it MUST to do A-B-C at a certain level, and with a manual it poses a problem in that equation. That is why I strongly believe my source when he says, “the manual option won’t be aimed towards the track/performance enthusiast, but more towards the touring enthusiast.” It makes total sense because Tada and Toyota probably know that even the right manual transmission would cripple the MKV Supra in a very competitive arena (performance/cost). An auto Supra was the right move for initial launch because any other drivetrain offering would result in a slower and heavier Supra....yeah and for ~$60k??? See where that poses a problem for them? I think the internet would absolutely take a dump on the Supra had that been an option initially....in terms of performance figures (i.e., “omg, the MKIV Supra use to kill Vette’s with a manual back in the day, shame on you Toyota, blah blah blah). 20yrs ago, things were a little different....Corvette’s made ~300hp at best and weighed as much as a tank, so a 6spd Supra with 320hp didn’t matter because the car was technically more advanced than a Vette so either drivetrain option was acceptable because it could outperform in either trim. Today, that is NOT the case anymore....Corvette’s now have almost 500hp, weigh less, and cost as much as a Supra. I still believe a manual is coming but I completely understand why an auto was the only option at launch....and a manual will truly be for the drivers who enjoy rowing gears more than 1/4 times. Just my two cents :thumbsup:.
the manual would be for people who want to attack the corners with someone, i take it?
 

RyanGT3RS

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Yeah, I wanna believe that Tada’s primary reason for not deploying a manual this early in the game had to do more with overall performance more than actual ability to offer a manual (cost, etc...). Hence why he threw hints of “...if there is a demand.” In other words, I believe that Toyota is in a bind right now in that in order for the MKV Supra to be competitive in today’s market it MUST to do A-B-C at a certain level, and with a manual it poses a problem in that equation. That is why I strongly believe my source when he says, “the manual option won’t be aimed towards the track/performance enthusiast, but more towards the touring enthusiast.” It makes total sense because Tada and Toyota probably know that even the right manual transmission would cripple the MKV Supra in a very competitive arena (performance/cost). An auto Supra was the right move for initial launch because any other drivetrain offering would result in a slower and heavier Supra....yeah and for ~$60k??? See where that poses a problem for them? I think the internet would absolutely take a dump on the Supra had that been an option initially....in terms of performance figures (i.e., “omg, the MKIV Supra use to kill Vette’s with a manual back in the day, shame on you Toyota, blah blah blah). 20yrs ago, things were a little different....Corvette’s made ~300hp at best and weighed as much as a tank, so a 6spd Supra with 320hp didn’t matter because the car was technically more advanced than a Vette so either drivetrain option was acceptable because it could outperform in either trim. Today, that is NOT the case anymore....Corvette’s now have almost 500hp, weigh less, and cost as much as a Supra. I still believe a manual is coming but I completely understand why an auto was the only option at launch....and a manual will truly be for the drivers who enjoy rowing gears more than 1/4 times. Just my two cents :thumbsup:.
I believe the C5 vette didn’t really weigh too much, made 350hp base and in ZO6 form 405hp. But I agree, performance of the “base” model was competitive with the mkiv at the time.
 

PerformanceSound

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I believe the C5 vette didn’t really weigh too much, made 350hp base and in ZO6 form 405hp. But I agree, performance of the “base” model was competitive with the mkiv at the time.
My mistake...I meant 20-some-years ago (during the MKIV’s years). I’m no Chevy expert but the Z06 was on a hiatus after 63’ and didn’t come back til’ 2001, outside the MKIV Supra’s time, no? The only Vette’s “comparable” during the MKIV’s time I believe were the C4 “Grand Sport” til’ 1996 and the base C5 from 1997 to 1998 when the Supra got discontinued....both of which still couldn’t match the MKIV at the time. The Z06 reappeared in 2001. In terms of power figures, the Supra realistically made over 320hp, closer to the Vette’s HP figures, no? I can’t recall the actual numbers.

But yeah, point I’m trying to make is that a manual option during that time with similar power figures and performance between competitors made the climate to offer a manual option much easier than today. Today, everyone seems to only care about 500hp+, 0-60, 1/4 mile, and top speed...no one cares anymore about handling, chassis dynamics, learning to road race, circuits, etc... So, for Toyota to accommodate, anything that can add just a few ounces of additional performance matters to them GREATLY....even if it means not offering a heavy “slower shifting” manual transmission......initially :D.
 
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KahnBB6

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PerformanceSound, I am inclined to agree with the logic of your analysis in both of your last posts. Now, aside from that comes the business case for offering a less popular (today) conventional FR manual transmission option in the Supra at all, but my position on that remains that offering it in lower volume than the auto as an extra-cost option is perfectly fine and to be expected.

And yes, it DOES make sense that in 2019 with the competition focused on raw performance numbers that are better achieved with a modern *fast* automatic or DCT I do get it that Toyota as a brand wants to emphasize initially what the *majority* of buyers are going to expect and want from this car. They want to make an impression and really show all that a new Supra can do today. I get it.

As such, ichitaka05's hypothetical scenario of how a manual version could be offered and what kind of Supra target customer it would be aimed at make a lot of sense. To me anyway.

Tetsuya Tada has repeatedly stated that he wants several variants of this car all appealing to different types of buyers. I think the best scenario of all is that the Supra has several variants all expressing a different side of this car's potentialities within the scope of the same basic platform.

Now THAT kind of demonstrated versatility from factory variants of this sportscar *in addition to* the ability to tune it... that truly would further cement what the Supra is supposed to be about:

I.E. that there is no one way to offer, set up or enjoy the car. Instead there would ideally be MANY ways to express and enjoy the Supra.

An all-rounder, an ultimate high performance model, an ultimate race-grade model, a "touring" model with a stick-shift, lighter weight variants and even lower powered (SZ-R) and more affordable (in both price and tax bracket for countries that tax much more over 2.0L engine sizes) model that is nonetheless quick and engaging and focused on the chassis itself rather than the outright power of the 3.0's.

I realize we're a bit into speculation here so I'll leave my thoughts at that and I hope we're still pretty much within the lines of your main post topic, ichitaka05.
 

PerformanceSound

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PerformanceSound, I am inclined to agree with the logic of your analysis in both of your last posts. Now, aside from that comes the business case for offering a less popular (today) conventional FR manual transmission option in the Supra at all, but my position on that remains that offering it in lower volume than the auto as an extra-cost option is perfectly fine and to be expected.

And yes, it DOES make sense that in 2019 with the competition focused on raw performance numbers that are better achieved with a modern *fast* automatic or DCT I do get it that Toyota as a brand wants to emphasize initially what the *majority* of buyers are going to expect and want from this car. They want to make an impression and really show all that a new Supra can do today. I get it.

As such, ichitaka05's hypothetical scenario of how a manual version could be offered and what kind of Supra target customer it would be aimed at make a lot of sense. To me anyway.

Tetsuya Tada has repeatedly stated that he wants several variants of this car all appealing to different types of buyers. I think the best scenario of all is that the Supra has several variants all expressing a different side of this car's potentialities within the scope of the same basic platform.

Now THAT kind of demonstrated versatility from factory variants of this sportscar *in addition to* the ability to tune it... that truly would further cement what the Supra is supposed to be about:

I.E. that there is no one way to offer, set up or enjoy the car. Instead there would ideally be MANY ways to express and enjoy the Supra.

An all-rounder, an ultimate high performance model, an ultimate race-grade model, a "touring" model with a stick-shift, lighter weight variants and even lower powered (SZ-R) and more affordable (in both price and tax bracket for countries that tax much more over 2.0L engine sizes) model that is nonetheless quick and engaging and focused on the chassis itself rather than the outright power of the 3.0's.

I realize we're a bit into speculation here so I'll leave my thoughts at that and I hope we're still pretty much within the lines of your main post topic, ichitaka05.
Absolutely....Toyota from the beginning (and I had mentioned this a while back) wanted to make sure that “a Supra for everyone” would be made available. Like you said; track, daily, touring, etc... I agree that at this point much of the hype around the manual transmission offering seems speculative, even if hints are coming from actual Toyota employees. I too have doubts and want to actually see it to believe it. It’s why I kept asking and scratching my head since a manual doesn’t make much sense in today’s arena.

Best case scenario (for me) would be a 6spd manual tough enough to take serious punishment and not necessarily be the fastest or lightest version. It’s what made me change my mind about the MKV Supra in the first place ;).
 

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More revisionist history here? The mid-90's C4 that went head to head with the MKIV was still a capable platform and was 300HP, 3300-3400lbs and held its own in most comparos. Now the '97 C5 was ~3200lbs, 345HP and kicked the door in and ran circles around nearly everything in every metric at the time except for the Viper, 911 and a handful of other exotics; at 39k it was half the cost of anything matching or excelling its performance.
 

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Irrespective of trim, cost, etc.. the absence of a manual trans is and always has been a 100% deal breaker; non-negotiable. For me, that trumps all other considerations, i.e, BMW architecture.
 

kona61

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Irrespective of trim, cost, etc.. the absence of a manual trans is and always has been a 100% deal breaker; non-negotiable. For me, that trumps all other considerations, i.e, BMW architecture.
But why? I love driving manual as much as anyone else, but the automatic in the Supra really is the best automatic I’ve ever driven. It’s essentialy just a more predictable DCT.
 

supraboi

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I'm not trying to be a bum, but OP's question was:
  1. If the manual was offered with a premium would you take it?
  2. After driving the AT, do you still want a manual?
I think we are well off track so far.
OP, @ichitaka05 should just add a poll to the thread.
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