👣 Official: Toyota Announces Manual Transmission Supra!

Only interested if it comes in manual?


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s219

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Toyota is still not satisfied with the manual options they have been presented with. Unlike BMW, Toyota won't just put whatever is in the parts bin just so a manual is available. I can almost guarantee you that if a "run of the mill" BMW transmission is used on the A90, that anyone running a down-pipe and tune will quickly make mush of the gears. I'm sure their rigorous tests have proven this ;)
See, I don't agree with that. The manual in the 86, which is a Toyota unit derived from Aisin, isn't any better than the manual in the M2 Competition. I don't know whether they have the option to use the M2C's 6MT box for the Supra, but it's at least as good as what Toyota is giving us in the 86.

I remember hearing "none of BMW's manuals are good enough" and "Tada saying people who want a manual should go buy an 86" together in the same post, and it's so contradictory it makes me think there is some BS here.

BMW does offer some mediocre manuals, but they also have some good ones that would be fantastic in a Supra.
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jm6k

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Toyota is still not satisfied with the manual options they have been presented with. Unlike BMW, Toyota won't just put whatever is in the parts bin just so a manual is available. I can almost guarantee you that if a "run of the mill" BMW transmission is used on the A90, that anyone running a down-pipe and tune will quickly make mush of the gears. I'm sure their rigorous tests have proven this ;)
Lexus put a Tacoma transmission in the IS250 because it's all they had in the parts bin. It was not a great transmission, but made the underpowered 250 quite a fun car. I understand they seem to feel the Supra needs to do better, but let's not act like Toyota is above doing that.
 

AHP

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T56 Magnum or TR6060 is almost the same as the V160 internally from a design perspective.

30mm FW gears, 75mm centre distance, triple synchro. Both rated to 450Nm.


450Nm? Isn't that only ~322ft-lb?


The TR6060 and T-56 Magnum are both severely underrated at 700ft-lb.
 

PerformanceSound

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See, I don't agree with that. The manual in the 86, which is a Toyota unit derived from Aisin, isn't any better than the manual in the M2 Competition. I don't know whether they have the option to use the M2C's 6MT box for the Supra, but it's at least as good as what Toyota is giving us in the 86.

I remember hearing "none of BMW's manuals are good enough" and "Tada saying people who want a manual should go buy an 86" together in the same post, and it's so contradictory it makes me think there is some BS here.

BMW does offer some mediocre manuals, but they also have some good ones that would be fantastic in a Supra.
Wait, let me make sure I am understanding the second sentence....are you saying the GT-86’s transmission is as stout as the M2 Comp. transmission???

Also, who said BMW has allowed an “M” manual transmission to be used in the A90? I said, that up to this point whatever transmission Toyota has been presented with has not passed rigorous tests. That doesn’t mean they have approved an “M” manual transmission.

If an “M” manual transmission will be in the A90, expect a drastic hike in price....something Toyota is very careful of fiddling with.
 

s219

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Wait, let me make sure I am understanding the second sentence....are you saying the GT-86’s transmission is as stout as the M2 Comp. transmission???
No, I never said anything remotely like that.

Also, who said BMW has allowed an “M” manual transmission to be used in the A90? I said, that up to this point whatever transmission Toyota has been presented with has not passed rigorous tests. That doesn’t mean they have approved an “M” manual transmission.

If an “M” manual transmission will be in the A90, expect a drastic hike in price....something Toyota is very careful of fiddling with.
I don't think the MT in the M2C is anything special or unique to the M line. It's a ZF unit, one of the S6 variants I believe, and other manufacturers use S6 MTs as well. Toyota should have access to this like any other manufacturer.
 

PerformanceSound

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No, I never said anything remotely like that.



I don't think the MT in the M2C is anything special or unique to the M line. It's a ZF unit, one of the S6 variants I believe, and other manufacturers use S6 MTs as well. Toyota should have access to this like any other manufacturer.
My mistake then, I misunderstood your post.
 

justbake

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I don't think the MT in the M2C is anything special or unique to the M line. It's a ZF unit, one of the S6 variants I believe, and other manufacturers use S6 MTs as well. Toyota should have access to this like any other manufacturer.
Where is the "BMW insider" who told me this wasn't possible because "he knows BMW production" but won't talk about it or explain it?
 

KahnBB6

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Apologies if these videos have already been posted in another thread but in case anyone missed it, European Auto Group made good on their promise to sell A90 B58 manual conversions. A few kinks to work out in the software but it seems they took care of everything on the hardware side and it runs, shifts and drives already without any ECU re-flashing.

Seeing the fairly straightforward work involved I am even more annoyed at both Toyota and BMW for not doing this from the onset for this pair of sports cars.

Part 1:



Part 2:



Part 3:



Part 4:




And here is a video about them from SEMA 2019:

 

PerformanceSound

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Apologies if these videos have already been posted in another thread but in case anyone missed it, European Auto Group made good on their promise to sell A90 B58 manual conversions. A few kinks to work out in the software but it seems they took care of everything on the hardware side and it runs, shifts and drives already without any ECU re-flashing.

Seeing the fairly straightforward work involved I am even more annoyed at both Toyota and BMW for not doing this from the onset for this pair of sports cars.
There is a video circulating somewhere of these guys actually testing the manual MKV in some random place in Nevada along with their Ferrari's.
 

PerformanceSound

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Do you recall how they said it felt?
No, but if I remember....they did say that the ECU was doing something goofy as the traction control was coming on too early or something. Don’t quote me on that. This thing will be very nice!
 

KahnBB6

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I’ll have to find that video. They’ve got some work ahead re-coding the ECU but they’ll get it right eventually.

Also of note from the SEMA video:

The only bolt-in gearbox they could use was one from a Euro-only BMW 520D. 1st and 2nd especially feel a bit long according to them such that under stock power they would want to switch the rear diff ring and pinion to 4.10 gearing to match the overall gearing that the factory auto setup has.

However, tuning the whole package for a lot more power (800whp++ one assumes) would take great advantage of the currently longer gearing.

Also, what I’m relaying here from the SEMA video was after very little seat time they had in the swapped A90 prior to getting it all bolted together for display. They were able to properly drive it around a parking lot at best before making those statements, so perhaps the video PerformanceSound is mentioning will have more in depth insight.

Still, even with some ECU bugs to work out and a possible rear diff gearing swap to make it perfect this is very close to what I’ve expected from a manual A90. very good so far.

This shop narrowing down bolt-in options to a 520D 6-speed transmission probably also suggests why Toyota/Tada-san would need to do some development of their own to get a perfect factory manual transmission into the car for sale.... if they ever do.
 

mkivalex

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I don't really understand a few of their choices, and maybe it comes down to part availability
a) Why this BMW transmission if the gears aren't quite right? They even mention in their video they are going to probably use a different BMW trans for different needs.
b) Why not use the factory Z4 pedals which they never mention in their videos instead modifying a different pedal set
c) Why not use the z4 lines? and what about a z4 tranny mount?

I think this is a really easy swap to do with just about a complete bolt in solution.
 

KahnBB6

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I can only guess but regarding the manual pedal box, despite this announcement: https://www.autoblog.com/2019/05/22/bmw-z4-manual-transmission-supra/

...has BMW actually gone about putting the reported Z4 2.0L 6-speed manual variant into production for Europe or did this fall by the wayside? EAG could only source those parts if they were available to purchase through BMW's European dealer network.

Same for the transmission mount, clutch lines and driveshaft. Great if they are available but if they aren't then they had to improvise from whatever else is in the BMW parts bin.

For the transmission the only explanation they gave is that the B58C has its starter motor mounting area near the bottom of the engine and that (according to them) the only gearbox that would easily bolt up as designed was this one from the Euro BMW 520D 6-speed M/T model.

This is also why they installed a Euro OEM dual mass flywheel with the stock 2.0L clutch, assuming they knew of no other off the shelf flywheel, clutch disc and pressure plate combination that would work as a bolt-in solution at this time.

They seemed to suggest that they wanted to work with an aftermarket clutch manufacturer to have some better and stronger single mass flywheel and clutch options. Hopefully that will include twin and triple plate clutch kits for the amount of low end torque that the B58C already puts out in stock tune. They'll need it.

I was also surprised that their transmission of choice wasn't from one of the M2, M3 or M4 vehicles but the starter mounting location and parts bin BMW transmissions with integrated bell-housings as part of their entire castings seem to be the main reasons why they made that decision.

Another consideration is that given the very torquey nature of turbodiesel engines it may be that the Euro 520D 6-speed M/T gearbox has stronger internals than whatever 6-speed M/T gearbox is in the 2020 Z4 manual variant. Along with a much stronger aftermarket clutch being needed this can only help to cope with the B58C's exceptional torque curve from very low RPMs.

Maybe there is some other compatible OEM part they overlooked? It's entirely possible.

The only part of this that stands out to me is why they didn't manage to source the pedal box parts, left foot rest & carpeting, manual shift bezel and shifter linkages all from the Euro 2020 BMW Z4 2.0T which supposedly has already been on sale with a manual transmission (that has been announced but which I have yet to read a single review about online as of this posting, so... does a production Z4 2.0T manual exist or not??).
 
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JasonO

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They just need to release a manual but they may have missed the boat now. Too much inertia with the die-hards to hate on because it is not a spitting image of a 20 year old car and power plant. Those sales likely aren’t coming back easily.

I swear, if they released a manual version on launch, three quarters of the haters would have jumped aboard just because of the words Supra and manual. “But it’s a BMW” would barely be uttered because half of them would now own one.

I prefer an automatic because I daily mine, but if I didn’t, a manual would have some serious appeal.
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