Toyota Presents World Debut of the New 2022 GR 86

Modal170

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I hope the new 86 just has a little more visual pop to differentiate the old generation. I wonder if the car will weigh just a bit less and have some torque bump
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Red-hat

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I'm hoping for at least 250hp though.
Me too. The rumours about just 220HP from a NA FA24 disappoint me. If this comes out in 2021/2022, it will be basically 10 years on from the initial release of the 200HP 86. A 20HP increase after 10 years is poor for a dedicated sports car. Compare to hot hatches, they have added much more power in the same timeframe. EDIT, I am reading possible 220PS, which is only 217HP, meaning an increase of only 12HP over the current 205HP 86 - a 20% displacement increase for just 12HP gain? That would be pathetic, a marketing disaster, and set up to fail.

220HP (and similar 10% torque increase presumably), with the same weight, is not really enough to get me to upgrade from my current 86. I’d rather spend the extra money on a turbo kit, or stretch to another car such as a Supra. 250-260HP stock, however, would definitely have me interested - I’ve long thought 250HP is the sweet spot for the current 86 chassis.

I think they are carrying the ‘NA purity’ concept too far. Yes, it pleases the 10% of auto journalists who wax lyrical about the ‘purity’ of a NA engine, but the vast majority of the buying public are now attuned to the benefits of turbos, and expect decent torque for their daily driving. Insisting on making a weaker, NA FA24, with the added complexity no doubt required to meet emissions, when an emissions compliant, production ready, turbo FA24 making 260HP already exists, just baffles me. Just use the turbo if you want decent sales! If they don’t, and gen II is another torque lite 220HP, I fear it will be a sales flop, and sell much less than gen I, which at least had novelty and the benefit of coming out in 2012 amid lower HP expectations at the time. And my fear is that if gen II sells poorly in the first couple of years, it will probably get discontinued, and Toyota will wonder why (despite everyone shouting the answer out loud since 2012 - add turbo!).
 
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Modal170

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Me too. The rumours about just 220HP from a NA FA24 disappoint me. If this comes out in 2021/2022, it will be basically 10 years on from the initial release of the 200HP 86. A 20HP increase after 10 years is poor for a dedicated sports car. Compare to hot hatches, they have added much more power in the same timeframe. EDIT, I am reading possible 220PS, which is only 217HP, meaning an increase of only 12HP over the current 205HP 86 - a 20% displacement increase for just 12HP gain? That would be pathetic, a marketing disaster, and set up to fail.

220HP (and similar 10% torque increase presumably), with the same weight, is not really enough to get me to upgrade from my current 86. I’d rather spend the extra money on a turbo kit, or stretch to another car such as a Supra. 250-260HP stock, however, would definitely have me interested - I’ve long thought 250HP is the sweet spot for the current 86 chassis.

I think they are carrying the ‘NA purity’ concept too far. Yes, it pleases the 10% of auto journalists who wax lyrical about the ‘purity’ of a NA engine, but the vast majority of the buying public are now attuned to the benefits of turbos, and expect decent torque for their daily driving. Insisting on making a weaker, NA FA24, with the added complexity no doubt required to meet emissions, when an emissions compliant, production ready, turbo FA24 making 260HP already exists, just baffles me. Just use the turbo if you want decent sales! If they don’t, and gen II is another torque lite 220HP, I fear it will be a sales flop, and sell much less than gen I, which at least had novelty and the benefit of coming out in 2012 amid lower HP expectations at the time. And my fear is that if gen II sells poorly in the first couple of years, it will probably get discontinued, and Toyota will wonder why (despite everyone shouting the answer out loud since 2012 - add turbo!).

There's 2 answers here.

Either get cheaper since they would use the same platform, like 23k cheap while giving a horsepower bump, or be at the same price and have a beefed turbo option 260 hp at 33k, satisfying the people who wants power and will pay for it. Just the option will satisfy consumers.

However, Toyota will not do turbo. I'm almost certain
 

Red-hat

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There's 2 answers here.

Either get cheaper since they would use the same platform,
Very much doubt they would reduce the price. It will be similar or cost more, especially outside the USA. The relative high price is one of the things that held sales back in places like Europe, where faster, more powerful hot hatches cost less than the 86.

or be at the same price and have a beefed turbo option 260 hp at 33k, satisfying the people who wants power and will pay for it. Just the option will satisfy consumers.
If they add turbo, it will cost substantially more, which I am OK with. I’m prepared to pay 30-40% more for turbo and at least 250HP, personally.

However, Toyota will not do turbo. I'm almost certain
Sadly, I get the vibe you are right, no turbo. I really don’t understand it. The market has spoken, technology has moved on, and a turbo can be made very linear with a high rev limit if so desired - Porsche and Ferrari can do it. It’s almost like some kind of stubborn tantrum Toyota are playing, insisting on NA low power in a world full of much more powerful turbo sporty cars, dooming the 86 to negative press, ever dwindling sales and almost certain extinction.

If they insist on NA, why not use a 3.0, to get 250HP at least? Or even offer two grades, base 86 with the NA 2.4, and a higher grade turbo 86 for more $$! The purists are satisfied with their NA purity, and regular customers finally get the turbo 86 the market is crying out for. Win win!
 

A70TTR

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marketing wise, the car has to fit the product stack and slot in below the 4 cylinder Supra, which is 260hp in highest trim everywhere it's currently available and rumored to be bumped to ~280 for US debut timeframe.

that means the max you'd see for the 86 is likely 220-230hp for what I'd guess is around the same price.



Do I think that's the best logic? no, but what I think doesn't matter... I think it would be awesome to offer both an NA and FI variant, price accordingly, and call it a day (the Supra has 4 and 6 cylinder variants after all). another thing to consider however is engineering requirements that Toyota sets forth, and Tada told me the 86 in current configuration would not meet structural guidelines for much more power, and since they are reusing the same chassis that's definitely a concern. All can be solved with time and money, but we know how that goes...
 
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A70TTR

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Not that I'm aware of, but that doesn't mean something isn't planned. I've been so busy with my current stuff that it's like I live under a rock though, so...
 

MLG Tofu Shop

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@A70TTR the engine in the current 86/BRZ is quite a bad example of a high revving naturally aspirated engine, not hard for Toyota and Subaru to make another NA engine that's significantly improved over the current FA20 IMO.
 
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Test mule or facelift?:hmm:

I'd say test mule,but that new front bumper makes me rethink about it
 

Red-hat

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I get that Toyota need to leave space between the 4 pot Supra and the next 86... Makes me wish they had kept the Supra B58 only, then there would be more room for a turbo 86 with 250-260 HP.

Unfortunately, I am not sure a 220HP gen 2 86 makes a compelling case for an upgrade to current owners, particularly if the new car is heavier. We shall see!
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