Gazoo Artilce Confirms Lexus V8 Twin Turbo??

Not sure if anyone posted this before, if so sorry for the repost.

Saw this online today and took a snapshot of the article they were presenting. Curious what displacement and type of internals this new motor will have? LC-F with this motor will be a dream.

Good things come to those who wait?

PerformanceSound said:

Not sure if anyone posted this before, if so sorry for the repost.

Saw this online today and took a snapshot of the article they were presenting. Curious what displacement and type of internals this new motor will have? LC-F with this motor will be a dream.

Click to expand...

They reported this two days ago that they've been developing a TTV8 (however everyone knew of this, and is probably one of Toyota/Lexus' worst kept secrets ever) for like 6 years I believe?

They will be debuting the engine in the LC for the 24 Hours of Nürburgring next year. Soon the engine will go into Toyota and Lexus products.

PerformanceSound said:

Not sure if anyone posted this before, if so sorry for the repost.

Saw this online today and took a snapshot of the article they were presenting. Curious what displacement and type of internals this new motor will have? LC-F with this motor will be a dream.

Click to expand...

https://www.supramkv.com/threads/the-lexus-lc500-lc500h-plus-lc-f-talk.563/page-18#post-63344

Matador said:

https://www.supramkv.com/threads/the-lexus-lc500-lc500h-plus-lc-f-talk.563/page-18#post-63344

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This is going to be amazing...if Toyota doesn’t screw it up.

PerformanceSound said:

This is going to be amazing...if Toyota doesn’t screw it up.

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Let us pray that it is Tuner friendly

This has been news for 2 years now. Nothing new. Speculated LC-F with a 4.4L V8TT, a 4.0L V8TT and even a revision of the 5.0L 2UR-GSE currently in the LC500. I have been sitting on 525hp NA on my 2018 LC500 for 2 years now with no tuning capabilities by a similar OTA software system that GM will be using in the new C8. Stuck in Natural Aspirated purgatory forever. If the ECU in the LC500 gets cracked then I will be moving forward with the Boost Logic super charger kit. Estimated 600whp on 93 pump at 7 psi stock block and transmission.

Here's my 2018 LC500

Z8AKU said:

This has been news for 2 years now. Nothing new.

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2 years? More like 7-8 years.

We've been hearing about a twin-turbocharged V8 from Lexus for a ridiculously long time. To give you perspective, we're nearing to the turn of a new decade next year in 2020, but talks were occurring about this engine SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THIS DECADE. I'm shocked that the development of this project came through to the end honestly. On the other hand, a company like Lexus (and Toyota) NEED an engine of this caliber.

The only thing that was up in the air was the displacement that this new twin-turbo V8 was going to have. I've heard ranges from 4.0L to 4.4L, and even from 5.0L to 5.5L. Personally, I expected the displacement to be higher (e.g. 4.4L, 5.0L, 5.5L) because that's generally how Lexus rolls, but 4.0L is nice too, especially for some countries that have certain tax brackets depending on the displacement of the engine.

F1 Silver Arrows said:

2 years? More like 7-8 years.

We've been hearing about a twin-turbocharged V8 from Lexus for a ridiculously long time. To give you perspective, we're nearing to the turn of a new decade next year in 2020, but talks were occurring about this engine SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THIS DECADE. I'm shocked that the development of this project came through to the end honestly. On the other hand, a company like Lexus (and Toyota) NEED an engine of this caliber.

The only thing that was up in the air was the displacement that this new twin-turbo V8 was going to have. I've heard ranges from 4.0L to 4.4L, and even from 5.0L to 5.5L. Personally, I expected the displacement to be higher (4.4L, 5.0L, 5.5L) because that's generally how Lexus rolls, but 4.0L is nice too, especially for some countries that have certain tax brackets depending on the displacement of the engine.

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You probably have read speculated rumors spread amongst the many online automotive publications for years but it wasn't until 2018 that plans for a TTV8 for an LC-F were seriously considered. The LC-F has been green lighted however, knowing Lexus they will arrive to the party with yet another underpowered and heavy car once again. Even if they deliver this LC-F with 600-650hp and shaved 500 lbs. off the already staggering 4,465 lb. LC500 it still wouldn't be enough. When you have Ferraris, McLaren, Audi, Porsche and Dodge, Ford as well as GM coming out with 720-1,100hp cars that weigh 2,900-3100 lbs. with dual clutches and AWD, a Lexus LC-F won't be on anyone's radar. Even further putting a nail in the horsepower race will be all the new EV cars coming out from 2021 and up with 1,500-2,000hp with a range of 600 miles on one charge and 0-60 times in 1.7 seconds while running 8 second 1/4 miles right off the showroom floor. GAME OVER!

Z8AKU said:

You probably have read speculated rumors spread amongst the many online automotive publications for years but it wasn't until 2018 that plans for a TTV8 for an LC-F were seriously considered. The LC-F has been green lighted however, knowing Lexus they will arrive to the party with yet another underpowered and heavy car once again. Even if they deliver this LC-F with 600-650hp and shaved 500 lbs. off the already staggering 4,465 lb. LC500 it still wouldn't be enough. When you have Ferraris, McLaren, Audi, Porsche and Dodge, Ford as well as GM coming out with 720-1,100hp cars that weigh 2,900-3100 lbs. with dual clutches and AWD, a Lexus LC-F won't be on anyone's radar. Even further putting a nail in the horsepower race will be all the new EV cars coming out from 2021 and up with 1,500-2,000hp with a range of 600 miles on one charge and 0-60 times in 1.7 seconds while running 8 second 1/4 miles right off the showroom floor. GAME OVER!

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"You probably have read speculated rumors spread amongst the many online automotive publications for years but it wasn't until 2018 that plans for a TTV8 for an LC-F were seriously considered."

What? What does that have to do with anything? The TTV8 and the LC F are completely separate things. Back in the beginning of the decade, there was no such thing as the LC. But there was talks of the TTV8 from all directions (publications, insiders, corporate, etc.). LC F was considered when the LC was revealed in 2016. I believe even before that too if I'm not mistaken.

"The LC-F has been green lighted however, knowing Lexus they will arrive to the party with yet another underpowered and heavy car once again. Even if they deliver this LC-F with 600-650hp and shaved 500 lbs. off the already staggering 4,465 lb. LC500 it still wouldn't be enough. When you have Ferraris, McLaren, Audi, Porsche and Dodge, Ford as well as GM coming out with 720-1,100hp cars that weigh 2,900-3100 lbs. with dual clutches and AWD, a Lexus LC-F won't be on anyone's radar. Even further putting a nail in the horsepower race will be all the new EV cars coming out from 2021 and up with 1,500-2,000hp with a range of 600 miles on one charge and 0-60 times in 1.7 seconds while running 8 second 1/4 miles right off the showroom floor. GAME OVER!"

Ok hold up. What makes you think this is fighting Ferraris and McLarens? It can definitely go toe-to-toe with Porsche and Audi. Also the fact that you mention Dodge, Ford and GM as competitors to Lexus is appalling. This is going to wipe the BMW M8/M8 Competition, Mercedes-AMG S63/S65, mid-range Porsche 911 GTS', mid-range Taycans, to the Panamera Turbo/Turbo S E-Hybrid. It's also going to wipe those sad excuses from Ford, Dodge and GM. It's also going to step on the toes of the Ferrari Portofino and the Ferrari Roma. The amazing Lamborghini Huracan LP580-2 will be in the realm of the LC F but I expect the Lamborghini to beat this car. It will be the same case for the McLaren 570s but the 540c may be a completely different story.

Weight doesn't matter in this class. It's a flagship luxury car, and I won't even bother responding to your last sentence because you clearly don't understand why this car is being created, also you have absolutely zero clue of what cars are in the LC F's competitive class. Not to mention you are just pulling shit from nowhere to devalue this car even though one, you're contradicting yourself with those points, and two, your argument doesn't hold any water whatsoever regardless. You're arguing and complaining about something that nobody (as in Lexus or the general population) asked about or wanted to know the answer to, thus your points are completely and totally irrelevant.

You sound like you're one of those people who goes on to a YouTube video of a Rolls-Royce Phantom VIII review and make an edgy suggestion that for half the price you can get the Tesla Roadster because it's faster and has better acceleration and whatnot. You're making irrelevant conclusions and are making no sense whatsoever.

The LC (and the LC F to a greater extent) is a halo car and is important for Lexus, just like all halo cars and how they are important by representing other brands. But to compare to EV's with power levels of 1500 to 2000 horsepower is not only asinine, but also makes me question if you really understand the automotive industry as a whole.

F1 Silver Arrows said:

--> What? What does that have to do with anything? The TTV8 and the LC F are completely separate things. Back in the beginning of the decade, there was no such thing as the LC. But there was talks of the TTV8 from all directions (publications, insiders, corporate, etc.). LC F was considered when the LC was revealed in 2016. I believe even before that too if I'm not mistaken.

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The concept LF-LC debuted in Tokyo 2015 which later became the LC500 released in mid to late 2017. Again, TT V8 from Lexus was all but wishful and speculative editorialists and journalists exaggerating tidbits of leaked yet misconstrued information and blowing smoke for reader engagement. This happens all the time. I lost count at all the speculation about the R35 GT-R when the concept was shown in 2001 and then the actual car was released in 2009 and featured nothing that it was rumored to have.

F1 Silver Arrows said:

--> Ok hold up. What makes you think this is fighting Ferraris and McLarens? It can definitely go toe-to-toe with Porsche and Audi. Also the fact that you mention Dodge, Ford and GM as competitors to Lexus is appalling. This is going to wipe the BMW M8/M8 Competition, Mercedes-AMG S63/S65, mid-range Porsche 911 GTS', mid-range Taycans, to the Panamera Turbo/Turbo S E-Hybrid. It's also going to wipe those sad excuses from Ford, Dodge and GM. It's also going to step on the toes of the Ferrari Portofino and the Ferrari Roma. The amazing Lamborghini Huracan LP580-2 will be in the realm of the LC F but I expect the Lamborghini to beat this car. It will be the same case for the McLaren 570s but the 540c may be a completely different story.

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No a Lexus LC-F wouldn't be able to handle a Porsche or an Audi you're mental to think so. A stock Porsche GT3 or even an Audi R8 would destroy a TT V8 Lexus LC-F with 600hp at 4,000 lb. curb weight and a single direct shift transmission. The LC-F would need to weigh around 3,600 lbs. with a DCT and a launch control feature with a minimum of 550 lb-ft to even compete.

I can already give you an idea of what an LC-F will do even with a TT V8 with 700hp at a curb weight of 4,000 lbs.. About 11.7 in a 1/4 mile with a damn good driver on a prepped track. There are plenty of well documented 5.0L V8 2UR-GSE running the RR Racing supercharger kit making 700+hp in RC-F and IS-F cars that weigh much less than my 2018 LC500 and still get slapped silly by cars with 300hp less. I've got lots of videos as empirical evidence to back that up to.

Lexus is going after AMG S63, McLaren GT, Aston Martin DB11, Ferrari 812 super fast and the likes with the upcoming LC-F. However, Lexus is far too conservative as they are strict about their reliability and warranty status, and in order to beat out the aforementioned cars listed above they will have to break a few of their own rules to do so. Don't think Testsuya will risk Toyota's global award winning recognition for the world's most reliable cars a million years in a row to do it.

F1 Silver Arrows said:

Weight doesn't matter in this class. It's a flagship luxury car, and I won't even bother responding to your last sentence because you clearly don't understand why this car is being created, also you have absolutely zero clue of what cars are in the LC F's competitive class. Not to mention you are just pulling shit from nowhere to devalue this car even though one, you're contradicting yourself with those points, and two, your argument doesn't hold any water whatsoever regardless. You're arguing and complaining about a question/answer that is completely and totally irrelevant.

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I have owned my 2018 LC500 since December of 2017. I was the first in the world to have a full bolt-on LC500. First in the world to feature the Tom's aero package. I was hired to have my LC500's exhaust, engine and paddle shifters all recorded by lifetime achievement award winner and world renowned sound recordist John Fasal. My LC500 was featured in Road & Track Magazine, featured on Lexus USA and Toyota.jp as well as my audio recordings appearing in several Lexus commercials and in a few EA video games. My LC500 was also the prototype for the PPE EQ race headers, PPE mid pipe and PPE exhaust kits. Lastly my LC500 is constantly shared on Tom's Official pages as well. I have had my LC500 on the drag strip and road course dozens of times and have placed over 30K miles on it in 2 years. You're clueless! LMAO

F1 Silver Arrows said:

You sound like you're one of those people who goes on to a YouTube video of a Rolls-Royce Phantom VIII review and make an edgy suggestion that for half the price you can get the Tesla Roadster because it's faster and has better acceleration and whatnot. You're making irrelevant conclusions and are making no sense whatsoever.

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I'm the guy posting videos on YouTube who gets 200K views on a video with only 600 subscribers.

F1 Silver Arrows said:

The LC (and the LC F to a greater extent) is a halo car and is important for Lexus, just like all halo cars and how they represent other brands.

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I have their halo car the LC500 it's a complete flop. They have depreciated faster than a 10 year old Hyundai. Why? They are heavy, have slow acceleration, it's overpriced for what you get, no tuning capabilities and very little aftermarket support.

F1 Silver Arrows said:

But to compare to EV's with power levels of 1500 to 2000 horsepower is not only asinine, but also makes me question if you really understand the automotive industry as a whole.

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You have obviously been living under a rock. Lucid, Nio, Vanda Dendrobium, Faraday and Rimac are just a few who already have 1,100-2,500hp EV cars for sale today. Karma and Tesla have their new models coming out as well with over 1,100 BHP.

Z8AKU said:

This has been news for 2 years now. Nothing new. Speculated LC-F with a 4.4L V8TT, a 4.0L V8TT and even a revision of the 5.0L 2UR-GSE currently in the LC500. I have been sitting on 525hp NA on my 2018 LC500 for 2 years now with no tuning capabilities by a similar OTA software system that GM will be using in the new C8. Stuck in Natural Aspirated purgatory forever. If the ECU in the LC500 gets cracked then I will be moving forward with the Boost Logic super charger kit. Estimated 600whp on 93 pump at 7 psi stock block and transmission.

Here's my 2018 LC500

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Sick whip!

That’s the issue with Lexus, they make great cars, but lack alot in the sports-car arena....especially their tuning capabilities (post 2JZ era). The RCF would be insane with a proper turbo kit and a tuner friendly ecu.

PerformanceSound said:

Sick whip!

That’s the issue with Lexus, they make great cars, but lack alot in the sports-car arena....especially their tuning capabilities (post 2JZ era). The RCF would be insane with a proper turbo kit and a tuner friendly ecu.

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Thank you! I'm not sure but I don't think a turbo kit will be much better than the existing RR Racing super charger kit that most RC-F are running. The problem isn't tuning in the RC-F it's the curb weight. It's over 4,000 lbs. Newer Lexus models are definitely solid cars, great sound deadening with high quality materials. The excessive weight on their vehicles with lack of low end torque is what makes them not so appealing after the aw of the aesthetics wears off. Most of their cars power bands are so high in the rpm band that you only start to enjoy it if you are over 4,000 rpm and remaining at high rpms where all the torque is.

Z8AKU said:

The concept LF-LC debuted in Tokyo 2015 which later became the LC500 released in mid to late 2017. Again, TT V8 from Lexus was all but wishful and speculative editorialists and journalists exaggerating tidbits of leaked yet misconstrued information and blowing smoke for reader engagement. This happens all the time. I lost count at all the speculation about the R35 GT-R when the concept was shown in 2001 and then the actual car was released in 2009 and featured nothing that it was rumored to have.

No a Lexus LC-F wouldn't be able to handle a Porsche or an Audi you're mental to think so. A stock Porsche GT3 or even an Audi R8 would destroy a TT V8 Lexus LC-F with 600hp at 4,000 lb. curb weight and a single direct shift transmission. The LC-F would need to weigh around 3,600 lbs. with a DCT and a launch control feature with a minimum of 550 lb-ft to even compete.

I can already give you an idea of what an LC-F will do even with a TT V8 with 700hp at a curb weight of 4,000 lbs.. About 11.7 in a 1/4 mile with a damn good driver on a prepped track. There are plenty of well documented 5.0L V8 2UR-GSE running the RR Racing supercharger kit making 700+hp in RC-F and IS-F cars that weigh much less than my 2018 LC500 and still get slapped silly by cars with 300hp less. I've got lots of videos as empirical evidence to back that up to.

Lexus is going after AMG S63, McLaren GT, Aston Martin DB11, Ferrari 812 super fast and the likes with the upcoming LC-F. However, Lexus is far too conservative as they are strict about their reliability and warranty status, and in order to beat out the aforementioned cars listed above they will have to break a few of their own rules to do so. Don't think Testsuya will risk Toyota's global award winning recognition for the world's most reliable cars a million years in a row to do it.


I have owned my 2018 LC500 since December of 2017. I was the first in the world to have a full bolt-on LC500. First in the world to feature the Tom's aero package. I was hired to have my LC500's exhaust, engine and paddle shifters all recorded by lifetime achievement award winner and world renowned sound recordist John Fasal. My LC500 was featured in Road & Track Magazine, featured on Lexus USA and Toyota.jp as well as my audio recordings appearing in several Lexus commercials and in a few EA video games. My LC500 was also the prototype for the PPE EQ race headers, PPE mid pipe and PPE exhaust kits. Lastly my LC500 is constantly shared on Tom's Official pages as well. I have had my LC500 on the drag strip and road course dozens of times and have placed over 30K miles on it in 2 years. You're clueless! LMAO

I'm the guy posting videos on YouTube who gets 200K views on a video with only 600 subscribers.

I have their halo car the LC500 it's a complete flop. They have depreciated faster than a 10 year old Hyundai. Why? They are heavy, have slow acceleration, it's overpriced for what you get, no tuning capabilities and very little aftermarket support.

You have obviously been living under a rock. Lucid, Nio, Vanda Dendrobium, Faraday and Rimac are just a few who already have 1,100-2,500hp EV cars for sale today. Karma and Tesla have their new models coming out as well with over 1,100 BHP.

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Holy fuck. The amount of misinformation and the conjectures you're making is mind-blowing.

The concept LF-LC debuted in Tokyo 2015 which later became the LC500 released in mid to late 2017. Again, TT V8 from Lexus was all but wishful and speculative editorialists and journalists exaggerating tidbits of leaked yet misconstrued information and blowing smoke for reader engagement. This happens all the time. I lost count at all the speculation about the R35 GT-R when the concept was shown in 2001 and then the actual car was released in 2009 and featured nothing that it was rumored to have.

Dude. Who told you this information? We knew this shit from forever ago. Seems like you're just trying to butt in yourself here with your shitty facts. The LF-LC concept was showed in 2012 you nonce. It literally doesn't even take a Google search and yet you made yourself look like the biggest dumbass on the face of this earth. Like now you're completely are just twisting things and are arguing about points that I don't even care about. Get this in your head, THERE WERE TALKS AND MUMBLES OF A TTV8 FROM ALL DIRECTIONS INCLUDING CORPORATE SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THIS DECADE. GOT IT? HOLY FUCK.

No a Lexus LC-F wouldn't be able to handle a Porsche or an Audi you're mental to think so. A stock Porsche GT3 or even an Audi R8 would destroy a TT V8 Lexus LC-F with 600hp at 4,000 lb. curb weight and a single direct shift transmission. The LC-F would need to weigh around 3,600 lbs. with a DCT and a launch control feature with a minimum of 550 lb-ft to even compete.

Oh really now? I'm mental eh? A LC F can easily wipe the competition and you're not even giving me examples of how the LC F is unable to beat a Porsche and Audi. It seems like you're refusing a truth and are spreading lies as a result of that. The GTR is a boat in terms of mass and it is still competitive against lighter cars as well. A single direct shift transmission? There is no such thing as that. Did you just combine a single-clutch and a torque converter and made up a new name? Jesus fucking christ.

I can already give you an idea of what an LC-F will do even with a TT V8 with 700hp at a curb weight of 4,000 lbs.. About 11.7 in a 1/4 mile with a damn good driver on a prepped track.

The current LC 500 is mid to high 12's in the quarter mile. You're seriously suggesting that another 200 horsepower and 200-300 lb-ft of torque is only going to make it faster by 0.5-0.8 seconds? The notion that the amount of work that they're putting into this car and still coming up short is not only ridiculous but very asinine.

There are plenty of well documented 5.0L V8 2UR-GSE running the RR Racing supercharger kit making 700+hp in RC-F and IS-F cars that weigh much less than my 2018 LC500 and still get slapped silly by cars with 300hp less. I've got lots of videos as empirical evidence to back that up to.

Cite your sources. I want to see them. You're taking shit out of your ass and I know it.

Lexus is going after AMG S63, McLaren GT, Aston Martin DB11, Ferrari 812 super fast and the likes with the upcoming LC-F. However, Lexus is far too conservative as they are strict about their reliability and warranty status, and in order to beat out the aforementioned cars listed above they will have to break a few of their own rules to do so. Don't think Testsuya will risk Toyota's global award winning recognition for the world's most reliable cars a million years in a row to do it.

The base LC already is better than a DB11. The McLaren GT makes a boat load more power than the Lexus, and to an even greater extent so does the Ferrari. The competitors in the LC F's class is the ones I mentioned before.

You don't understand how Lexus and Toyota work. They over-engineer the shit out of everything. Why did it take ALMOST A DECADE for them to finally reveal the twin-turbo V8? That's because they have started on it many years before, and before that there were talks of the V8 happening. So it all lines up. Case in point? The venerable 2GR V6 engine that you see everywhere, was developed in the mid to late 90's and the early 2000's. Finally being released in 2006 in the Lexus IS350. It was so insane, so fast, so quick, it took manufacturers a good 5-7 years to catch up to Lexus' performance. History will repeat itself again here.

You already saying all other kinds of bullshit already makes me dismiss you as an idiot, also how you bitch and argue with so many other people in the forums, but to also say that Tada-san is developing the LC F makes you look even more stupid. Tada-san has nothing to do with this project lol. Yikes you're clueless.

I have owned my 2018 LC500 since December of 2017. I was the first in the world to have a full bolt-on LC500. First in the world to feature the Tom's aero package. I was hired to have my LC500's exhaust, engine and paddle shifters all recorded by lifetime achievement award winner and world renowned sound recordist John Fasal. My LC500 was featured in Road & Track Magazine, featured on Lexus USA and Toyota.jp as well as my audio recordings appearing in several Lexus commercials and in a few EA video games. My LC500 was also the prototype for the PPE EQ race headers, PPE mid pipe and PPE exhaust kits. Lastly my LC500 is constantly shared on Tom's Official pages as well. I have had my LC500 on the drag strip and road course dozens of times and have placed over 30K miles on it in 2 years. You're clueless! LMAO.

Listen child. I don't care what you got or what you don't got. Don't talk the talk if you can't walk the walk buddy. I guess I'm clueless because I don't care about your non-existent build. I don't bend over for trolls. Sorry bitch.

I'm the guy posting videos on YouTube who gets 200K views on a video with only 600 subscribers.

Oh really now? Paste a link here. Also isn't it funny how you just avoided my statement by saying this? I don't care how many views or subscribers you have. You just avoided to respond and defend a key part of your moral character (or lack thereof) when I said that.

I have their halo car the LC500 it's a complete flop. They have depreciated faster than a 10 year old Hyundai. Why? They are heavy, have slow acceleration, it's overpriced for what you get, no tuning capabilities and very little aftermarket support.

Halo cars aren't meant to be sales successes. Also Lexus messes up by only advertising and whoring the ES, RX and NX only. Depreciated faster than a 10 year old Hyundai? HAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHHAA. Why are you even on here if you're this butthurt? Clearly one, you have a boner to pick because a Lexus beat you, and two, you don't own a LC, because what you said is complete bullshit. They've kept their value well. Just go on the classifieds. All Lexus and Toyota vehicles barely depreciate lmaooo.

Heavy? It's a luxury car. What the fuck do you expect?

Slow acceleration? Jesus fucking christ since when is 4.5 seconds to 60 miles and hour slow?

Overpriced? Umm have you seen how much the S-Class coupe and the 8-Series cost in V8 guise?

Yes it has no tuning capabilities because of the restrictive ECU and it's a naturally aspirated engine. No shit.

You have obviously been living under a rock. Lucid, Nio, Vanda Dendrobium, Faraday and Rimac are just a few who already have 1,100-2,500hp EV cars for sale today. Karma and Tesla have their new models coming out as well with over 1,100 BHP.

I haven't been living under a rock. I know all those brands. But tell me, how much do those cars cost huh? Yeah think about that you stupid fuck.

Don't even bother to respond. Honestly from your immatureness, to your lack of facts, and you just using conjecture, is all proof that all of your words are just vapourware.

Get the fuck out of here. Because I've seen you getting into bitchfights with other members too.