DesmoSD
Well-Known Member
It couldn't be worse then being caught dead driving a RSX though...
Hot compact hatches have been the staple of Toyota's for a long time. I bet that little GR Yaris would pass a lot of fast cars at the track.
Sponsored
Updated GR Yaris with Automatic debuts at Tokyo Auto Salon
Hot compact hatches have been the staple of Toyota's for a long time. I bet that little GR Yaris would pass a lot of fast cars at the track.
KahnBB6
Well-Known Member
Desmo, I completely had a zone out moment while staring at that beautiful KP61 Starlet : )
I agree with you. The Yaris GR-4, especially with the optional LSDs, should leave quite a few cars behind on the technical tracks and especially windy roads and dirt courses. The stock power to weight ratio is excellent.
I agree with you. The Yaris GR-4, especially with the optional LSDs, should leave quite a few cars behind on the technical tracks and especially windy roads and dirt courses. The stock power to weight ratio is excellent.
SupraFiend
Well-Known Member
Thats not how co-development works. The 2 cars had been designed to share a platform from the get go, just like the SC300/mk4, 2nd gen Soarer/mk3, first gen Soarer/mk2, we could have easily gotten a 3400lb mk5 Supra (as we ended up with) with back seats, and a 3600ish RC300 (the RC300 4cyl auto is 3737lbs btw). With the Supra in the mix, the RC would have ended up lighter.
1993 SC300 auto curb weight: 3,505lbs
1993 Supra Non Turbo Auto curb weight: 3265lbs
People keep talking like the deal we got gave us a feather weight Supra. The reality is, a single turbo converted hard top mk4, with back seats and an extra foot of length, is lighter then the mk5 we got.
Axix23
Well-Known Member
Yeah, okay. RSX with a gt30r on volksIt couldn't be worse then being caught dead driving a RSX though...
Hot compact hatches have been the staple of Toyota's for a long time. I bet that little GR Yaris would pass a lot of fast cars at the track.
jm6k
Well-Known Member
I had the same thought.It couldn't be worse then being caught dead driving a RSX though...
Yeah, okay. Yaris with 270hp and AWD.
justbake
Well-Known Member
Then let's not pretend the RC doesn't share a platform with the IS and GS. They had a opportunity to reduce the weight when they stitched together 3 chassis' but it didn't save weight over the larger GS. Even the $100k RC F Track Edition barely breaks 3800 with its extensive weight savings
Extra 5 inches of length* (and 2 inches narrower than the MK5)
This completely disregards all the additional tech and safety features that a new car needs.
SupraFiend
Well-Known Member
Needs? Thats debatable lol
Its the law of averages, if you throw a sports car in the engineering mix, they would have done things differently. For instance, the SC300 and mk4 Supra share diffs, brake, hub components, transmissions, motors etc with the GS400/300, the LS400 even a little etc, but only the SC and mk4 share subframes, suspension components and any floor pan. Anyways, its a moot argument, whats done is done. I was just pointing out that when Toyota actually wants to do something, they will find a way and make it work, even if they have to spend a bit more.
Its the law of averages, if you throw a sports car in the engineering mix, they would have done things differently. For instance, the SC300 and mk4 Supra share diffs, brake, hub components, transmissions, motors etc with the GS400/300, the LS400 even a little etc, but only the SC and mk4 share subframes, suspension components and any floor pan. Anyways, its a moot argument, whats done is done. I was just pointing out that when Toyota actually wants to do something, they will find a way and make it work, even if they have to spend a bit more.
justbake
Well-Known Member
Okay boomer, whether or not someone "needs" 8 airbags, crumple zones, and a backup camera is debatable youre right. But those things are not debatable when a manufacturer has to build a car to meet a country's or region's standards. So yeah they are actually needs
You mean economies of scale?
Of course they could make it work if they wanted to, but why do they need to produce a halo car that will most likely be sold at a loss? Toyota hasn't had a halo car in 20 years and has since risen to the top of the automotive market without the halo car brand exposure.
SupraFiend
Well-Known Member
yeah, you haven't been attention the last 20 years. Do you not understand what a Halo car brings to a manufacturer? IT doesn't matter if it makes money. Toyota didn't understand this either for awhile there, and yes it did cost them. Did you not notice that at one point in the 2000s the average age of Toyota's costumers was getting dangerously close to the average age of corvette buyers? The entire lineup was so bland and boring, by the time they realized their mistake, they had to do something drastic. Again, that same Toyota board that was running the show, the one that was systematically cancelling any car project that wasn't super profitable, pulling back on over building cars and focusing so heavily on durability/reliability, and very much trying to become #1 by bean counting their way there, made the very GM like decision to solve their brand and age problem by creating a brand new youth focused division, Scion. Scion sort of worked, but duh, it did nothing sales wise for anything with a Toyota badge on the hood. It took Akio Toyoda taking power in the early 2010s to finally charge course, and under his leadership they got rid of Scion pretty quickly and instead set about making all of their cars exciting, but also brought back attainable sports and halo cars. The previous board didn't understand the business. I didn't buy my wife a corolla because corollas were cool when I was kid (actually some of them kinda were! ae86 etc lol), I bought her a Toyota because the Supra of the time (mk4) was amazing and Supras were attainable so I bought one (what I could afford, mk2) right out of school. But it made me a life long fan of Toyotas, hence the corolla sales decades later and intense brand loyalty.
No I don't mean economies of scale.
All Supras ever made have crumple zones, they don't add weight either. mk4s had 2 airbags, yes you need more these days, and of course backup cameras are mandated now. Thats like an extra 60lbs or so there. Although I don't care for back up cameras, I was more referring to the other new car staples the mk5 has. 20/19inch wheels, sub woofers, 14 way adjustable power seats, giant touch screens, "Automatic Emergency Response", "Real Time Traffic Information", "Concierge Service", "Battery Guard" and various other troublesome and intrusive software and technology that dilutes the experience and will only give you grief in the future. Cars, at least Japanese ones, peaked in the late 90s. There's pretty much no development made after about 02 to 04 that I care about in modern cars. Then there's the automatic only thing, lets not even go there.
Also, not a boomer, gen X/Millenial.
No I don't mean economies of scale.
All Supras ever made have crumple zones, they don't add weight either. mk4s had 2 airbags, yes you need more these days, and of course backup cameras are mandated now. Thats like an extra 60lbs or so there. Although I don't care for back up cameras, I was more referring to the other new car staples the mk5 has. 20/19inch wheels, sub woofers, 14 way adjustable power seats, giant touch screens, "Automatic Emergency Response", "Real Time Traffic Information", "Concierge Service", "Battery Guard" and various other troublesome and intrusive software and technology that dilutes the experience and will only give you grief in the future. Cars, at least Japanese ones, peaked in the late 90s. There's pretty much no development made after about 02 to 04 that I care about in modern cars. Then there's the automatic only thing, lets not even go there.
Also, not a boomer, gen X/Millenial.
KahnBB6
Well-Known Member
My 1993 SC300 5-speed's original curb weight was 3,506lbs. The automatic of the same year would be a slight bit heavier around 3,340-3,350lbs when you also factor in the traction control system's weight. Non-sunroof cars were lighter but were always rare and very low production for the U.S. Add in a GTE engine, R154 trans, LSD rear end and bigger front brakes and it's more like a 3,630-3,650lb car. Much closer to an MKIII Turbo in curb weight when set up in such a fashion. The later production SC400's got into 3,700+ lbs depending on the options and the 2JZ blocks are actually a bit heavier than the 1UZ's.
The MKIV program did take weight savings on the Z30 Soarer/SC platform to an extreme for the time within reason. A 1993.5 MKIV TT 6-speed is a 3,450lb car.
Back when the MKIV Supra program was in its infancy (1989 or so?) the chief engineer Isao Tsuzuki actually did not want to use the Z30 Soarer platform and fought against it as he felt the platform would be too much of a compromise. Management overruled him and so he worked within the confines he was given to create the overbuilt monster we know and love today. If he wanted a much more pure sportscar he may have ultimately been right but the result was still an amazingly engineered high performance GT sportscar.
Even the SC300 has a completely different feel from anything in today's Lexus lineup (like a luxury muscle car with violent power delivery in manual turbo trim). The division really wanted to distance themselves from it entirely at the close of the 90's. The SC430 that followed it is a much closer representation of today's Lexus philosophy than the 1st generation SC's and Z30 Soarers ever were. And I say this as a fan and owner of one.
With all the modern safety hardware and building to modern crash standards that would be required in a modern revamp of the 1st gen SC done otherwise the same way I would expect it to weight even more. A hypothetical new SC platform shared with a Supra would go quite a bit higher than 3,450lbs for the Toyota version when all would be said and done unless some very exotic and expensive materials were to be used. That would throw a $50k price point out the window.
That is... unless that hypothetical modern twist on the SC would be something very much not in line with what Lexus would want from a volume selling luxury coupe today. As it is, today's Lexus is far more along a totally different path of what they want from their increasingly brand-exclusive platforms and vehicle offerings compared to how they did things in 1990-1992.
The 2001-2010 SC430 is FAR closer in DNA relation to their current lineup than the old original SC is. The RC platform is a terrible candidate to shorten and lighten extensively into a "Supra" but Lexus seems to be doing fine with selling variants of it to customers who would never consider shopping it against a Supra for the reasons they actually want an RC.
Then again, sales of luxury coupes have been going down for all automakers in the last few years compared to their crossover and SUV sales which has to be influencing their investment strategies in such products.
...
This is a point of debate that could probably go on indefinitely. Would it have been amazing for today's Lexus make a FAR better RC (or reborn SC) with a Toyota-only Supra along with a new I-6 turbo engine family used throughout the Lexus midsize and large RWD & AWD lineup and at least one other global RWD sport sedan in the Toyota lineup? Absolutely! I'd love that personally but I do not see it happening.
Today in 2020 we have a very diminished sports car market not to mention declined sales of sedans and all kinds of interesting and fun enthusiast vehicles that people like us love. Instead we're seeing huge investments for ever more crossovers, CUVs and SUVs from from Toyota and also into electric and autonomous mobility technologies taking the lion's share of R&D money and other investment.
(Aside, I have nothing against electric investment but a lot of it currently seems to be tied up into some very boring vehicle designs and the autonomous stuff... well I couldn't be less interested in that personally).
What we DO have from Toyota despite these extremely depressing realities today are:
--a semi-affordable 2+2 RWD sports car already getting its second generation (which has a manual transmission).
--new mostly "attainable" Supra that ticks a lot of all the right boxes if not all of them from a design and spec standpoint alone with other variations and options hopefully on the horizon between MY2021-2023 (including at least one variant with a manual transmission... finally).
--an amazing pint-sized and powerful three-door AWD dual Torsen LSD equipped turbo 270hp 6-speed manual 2800lb homologation rally car for Japan and the EU with some variant of the driveline showing up in a global Toyota model bound for the USA.
--a very likely successor to the MR2 in the works
--a true LC-F coupe with a twin turbo V8 (and the closest thing to a real spiritual successor to the original Lexus SC400... only on steroids with a WAY more luxurious interior).
--possibly some tie-up with Lexus and Mazda and their Skyactiv-X 2.5L and 3.0L I6 engines and midsize RWD coupe and sedan architectures to make.... something. Hopefully something more fun and interesting than the current IS sedan and RC.
This is actually a lot of cool stuff. Is ALL of it 100% engineered by Toyota? Nope. But for some reason it is Toyota that is the catalyst for all of these special vehicles and possibilities happening in the first place.
I've long come to accept that the engineering of my SC300 and the MKIV TT engine that I was able to bolt right into it as a direct replacement powerplant is a product of Japan's insane economic boom of the early 90's which technically burst as early as 1994 (it took until about 2005 for all of the lovely R&D and architectures developed during that time to fully die out from production Toyota cars and from other Japanese automakers).
I would love to see an engineer's and enthusiast's paradise era like that again from any automaker today but look at what types of product technologies and offerings automakers are investing the bulk of their money into ("mobility" offerings)... and look at the predominantly popular chassis/body styles they are investing most of their focus into (crossovers/CUVs/SUVs).
I can think of a far worse reality that Akio Toyoda has been trying to avoid: a Toyota with no fun and attainable true enthusiast cars at all. Thankfully that's not the modern Toyota reality we're living in even if the path to some very cool and fun new vehicles breaks from the tradition of doing everything in-house.
Actually Toyota is far from the first automaker to use this strategy and I expect to see more of it from all automakers across the board going forward for better or worse. The reasons for that overall trend of platform and technology co-developing and sharing between two or more automakers at a time would take up another thread entirely.
The most important thing should be the cool cars we DO get despite things being done this way.
The Yaris GR-4 being a fully in-house job is pretty amazing but today it's the exception rather than the rule. And it involves an existing volume car platform and driveline architectures that are likely going to be spread out into other far more mainstream and boring Toyota models aside from the upcoming Corolla version of the GR-4.
The MKIV program did take weight savings on the Z30 Soarer/SC platform to an extreme for the time within reason. A 1993.5 MKIV TT 6-speed is a 3,450lb car.
Back when the MKIV Supra program was in its infancy (1989 or so?) the chief engineer Isao Tsuzuki actually did not want to use the Z30 Soarer platform and fought against it as he felt the platform would be too much of a compromise. Management overruled him and so he worked within the confines he was given to create the overbuilt monster we know and love today. If he wanted a much more pure sportscar he may have ultimately been right but the result was still an amazingly engineered high performance GT sportscar.
Even the SC300 has a completely different feel from anything in today's Lexus lineup (like a luxury muscle car with violent power delivery in manual turbo trim). The division really wanted to distance themselves from it entirely at the close of the 90's. The SC430 that followed it is a much closer representation of today's Lexus philosophy than the 1st generation SC's and Z30 Soarers ever were. And I say this as a fan and owner of one.
With all the modern safety hardware and building to modern crash standards that would be required in a modern revamp of the 1st gen SC done otherwise the same way I would expect it to weight even more. A hypothetical new SC platform shared with a Supra would go quite a bit higher than 3,450lbs for the Toyota version when all would be said and done unless some very exotic and expensive materials were to be used. That would throw a $50k price point out the window.
That is... unless that hypothetical modern twist on the SC would be something very much not in line with what Lexus would want from a volume selling luxury coupe today. As it is, today's Lexus is far more along a totally different path of what they want from their increasingly brand-exclusive platforms and vehicle offerings compared to how they did things in 1990-1992.
The 2001-2010 SC430 is FAR closer in DNA relation to their current lineup than the old original SC is. The RC platform is a terrible candidate to shorten and lighten extensively into a "Supra" but Lexus seems to be doing fine with selling variants of it to customers who would never consider shopping it against a Supra for the reasons they actually want an RC.
Then again, sales of luxury coupes have been going down for all automakers in the last few years compared to their crossover and SUV sales which has to be influencing their investment strategies in such products.
...
This is a point of debate that could probably go on indefinitely. Would it have been amazing for today's Lexus make a FAR better RC (or reborn SC) with a Toyota-only Supra along with a new I-6 turbo engine family used throughout the Lexus midsize and large RWD & AWD lineup and at least one other global RWD sport sedan in the Toyota lineup? Absolutely! I'd love that personally but I do not see it happening.
Today in 2020 we have a very diminished sports car market not to mention declined sales of sedans and all kinds of interesting and fun enthusiast vehicles that people like us love. Instead we're seeing huge investments for ever more crossovers, CUVs and SUVs from from Toyota and also into electric and autonomous mobility technologies taking the lion's share of R&D money and other investment.
(Aside, I have nothing against electric investment but a lot of it currently seems to be tied up into some very boring vehicle designs and the autonomous stuff... well I couldn't be less interested in that personally).
What we DO have from Toyota despite these extremely depressing realities today are:
--a semi-affordable 2+2 RWD sports car already getting its second generation (which has a manual transmission).
--new mostly "attainable" Supra that ticks a lot of all the right boxes if not all of them from a design and spec standpoint alone with other variations and options hopefully on the horizon between MY2021-2023 (including at least one variant with a manual transmission... finally).
--an amazing pint-sized and powerful three-door AWD dual Torsen LSD equipped turbo 270hp 6-speed manual 2800lb homologation rally car for Japan and the EU with some variant of the driveline showing up in a global Toyota model bound for the USA.
--a very likely successor to the MR2 in the works
--a true LC-F coupe with a twin turbo V8 (and the closest thing to a real spiritual successor to the original Lexus SC400... only on steroids with a WAY more luxurious interior).
--possibly some tie-up with Lexus and Mazda and their Skyactiv-X 2.5L and 3.0L I6 engines and midsize RWD coupe and sedan architectures to make.... something. Hopefully something more fun and interesting than the current IS sedan and RC.
This is actually a lot of cool stuff. Is ALL of it 100% engineered by Toyota? Nope. But for some reason it is Toyota that is the catalyst for all of these special vehicles and possibilities happening in the first place.
I've long come to accept that the engineering of my SC300 and the MKIV TT engine that I was able to bolt right into it as a direct replacement powerplant is a product of Japan's insane economic boom of the early 90's which technically burst as early as 1994 (it took until about 2005 for all of the lovely R&D and architectures developed during that time to fully die out from production Toyota cars and from other Japanese automakers).
I would love to see an engineer's and enthusiast's paradise era like that again from any automaker today but look at what types of product technologies and offerings automakers are investing the bulk of their money into ("mobility" offerings)... and look at the predominantly popular chassis/body styles they are investing most of their focus into (crossovers/CUVs/SUVs).
I can think of a far worse reality that Akio Toyoda has been trying to avoid: a Toyota with no fun and attainable true enthusiast cars at all. Thankfully that's not the modern Toyota reality we're living in even if the path to some very cool and fun new vehicles breaks from the tradition of doing everything in-house.
Actually Toyota is far from the first automaker to use this strategy and I expect to see more of it from all automakers across the board going forward for better or worse. The reasons for that overall trend of platform and technology co-developing and sharing between two or more automakers at a time would take up another thread entirely.
The most important thing should be the cool cars we DO get despite things being done this way.
The Yaris GR-4 being a fully in-house job is pretty amazing but today it's the exception rather than the rule. And it involves an existing volume car platform and driveline architectures that are likely going to be spread out into other far more mainstream and boring Toyota models aside from the upcoming Corolla version of the GR-4.
Last edited:
jm6k
Well-Known Member
Don't want to get caught up in your argument, but I totally share this feeling. As much as I'm trying to love the Supra, I just can't find the passion for it like I can with the 90's cars. Maybe it's a nostalgic thing, but the shift feel in those old cars just can't be beat. They had it all though back then. For some reason, something about this Yaris GR takes me back to those days though. The simplicity, but also the ridiculousness of the whole thing. This just isn't a package that we see today. And in the US unfortunately that will remain to be the case.
justbake
Well-Known Member
I do understand, if you actually read the question I asked you then you would know that I am putting that rhetoric to question. Toyota has remained the leader in car sales without a halo car for almost 20 years so what is there to gain to introducing an expensive sales risk to the formula?
So you could save 5 pounds per wheel by going to 18s from 19s, you got me there!
You don't have to get the JBL audio.
The seats are the only real weight adding item here. They definitely didn't need to add them but premium features are almost a necessity to be competitive in it's niche class of premium fun cars.
6.5 inch on the base isn't giant and weighs all of 4 pounds.
Software doesn't add weight.
Software doesn't add weight.
Software doesn't add weight.
Software doesn't add weight.
You're problem here doesn't exist with just Toyota or the A90, but with the industry as a whole.
Last edited:
SupraFiend
Well-Known Member
Actually they lost it at one point there, GM overtook them again. And technically, Toyota had no sports cars on the market from 2006 to 2012, so your 20 years thing doesn't really work. And if you hadn't breezed over my reply, you would have seen the bit about Scion. How much money did they loose starting and killing off Scion? They could have just made a money loosing halo/sports car with a Toyota badge on it in the first place, and still saved millions. You know something with a soul, something just for fun. Mazda had the foresight to keep the Miata going when times were tight, and tried something different with the RX8. Nissan had the foresight to keep their Z around and reinvented the GTR. Honda kept the double digit selling per year NSX around long after the Japanese recession hit and gave us the S2000. Mistubishi adapted and based their sports cars on a 4 door passenger car. Everyone had something fun in the stable, even if it wasn't making money. Toyota had... the Echo RS, literally the most exciting car they made between 06 and 2011.
Yes I made that clear, don't care about any new car tech made after 03/04. I also wasn't just going on about weight, I was implying that all that stuff could have been done without without making it any less a good car, and that most of it just adds complexity and will affect long term reliability. Re: the weight, we were teased before launch that this tiny 2 seater roadster platform was at least going to give us a way lower curb weight then the last car, despite all the things we gave up (rear seats, targa, manual transmission, Toyota build quality). You know, like the new Miata was lighter then the last 2 gens (and hey, they did it without giving up anything). Instead we got a car that is effectively the same weight as the last.
Sensors add weight.
Wiring adds weight.
Computers add weight.
Communication components add weight.
justbake
Well-Known Member
I said halo car not sports car, let's not twist my words. And it has been almost 20 years since the MK4 has been discontinued worldwide.
That's cool that a bunch of companies had fun cars but how does that relate to anything? This just comes off as being salty Toyota isn't producing what you like. While it is fine and you're welcome to have an opinion on things, that doesn't mean it is bad business not producing a halo car because you are unhappy.
Just because tech features don't make it a better car to you, doesn't mean it isn't a better car to someone else.
You keep calling this new car tiny like the mk4 is such a much larger car but how much do comparable cars to the Supra weigh from 2019-2020 when actually optioned out?
The 6mt 370z is just a few pounds less than the MK5 and thats with none of the tech stuff that youre claiming is making the car so much heavier while still being 6 inches shorter than the MK5.
The equally sized 718 Cayman goes north of 3200 when you start to option it out.
the 6mt M2 comp is 3600lbs.
New cars are heavy, this isn't Toyota's fault.
Sponsored
