Toyota Presents World Debut of the New 2022 GR 86

SupraFiend · Jan 13, 2020

The ONLY reason they used that motor in the first generation is the car was built by Subaru on a largely Subaru platform. Mix and matching chassis and motors from different manufacturer's is a really hard thing to do from a production and engineering standpoint, specifically with engine management/electronics factored in. The business case for developing this car dictated they had to use a Subie motor, everything else you just said is the marketing mumbo jumbo they cooked up to sell it to the public. There is a reason they rolled out a Toyota Sports 800, AE86 and 2000GT out along with the new car at the FRSs debut. One was the car they were trying to bring a modern version of back, one they borrowed some design queues from, and another just happened to have a boxer engine in it so it sort of legitimized using the Subie boxer 4. If Boxer 4s were so fantastic, Toyota wouldn't have walked away from them for good 50 years ago and used nothing but inline 4s in their small sports cars and sedans since.

Sure, a low CG is a good thing, but there are other ways to attain it without taking the many disadvantages of a boxer 4. See the new Supra for example...

SupraFiend · Jan 13, 2020

KahnBB6 said:
Packaging is one of the main reasons why the Supra A90 was made as a two-seater rather than as a 2+2 like the GT86.

Again, not even close. There is only 1 reason the new Supra is a 2 seater. Its because the car it shares a platform with has always been one. End of story.

Bryster · Jan 16, 2020

SupraFiend said:
Again, not even close. There is only 1 reason the new Supra is a 2 seater. Its because the car it shares a platform with has always been one. End of story.

Also the backseats being useless

KahnBB6 · Jan 16, 2020

SupraFiend said:
Again, not even close. There is only 1 reason the new Supra is a 2 seater. Its because the car it shares a platform with has always been one. End of story.

I don’t think you have that “story” cornered particularly such that you can singlehandedly “end” it.

Besides, I was primarily referring to the GT86/BRZ with my comment. Both Toyota and Subaru wanted a 2+2 coupe. The engine was going to be Subaru’s anyway and it just so happened to help keep the car’s wheelbase short while allowing for those back seats.

And they’re not useless. They’re not what you’d find in a Mercedes coupe but they fit me in the back just fine and measured about the same as my old Prelude’s rear seating area (and almost the same trunk space). For its size I was able to shove an obscene amount of stuff in that old car driving cross country and the 86/BRZ is about the same in that regard.

Hell, my SC’s back seat area may be bigger but it’s actually not quite as useful since I have a 20gal gas tank right behind those rear seats and only so much depth to the trunk.

Only a very big coupe is going to have amazing rear seating and rear cargo volume.

In the real world people do value small cars with back seats over two seaters when they can only keep one car at a time or for whatever reason need them for practical reasons. Oh and there’s insurance to consider too.

The Supra MKV being a two seater falls into line with the Z4 always having been a two seater yes... but consider if ditching the rear seat tradition was actually something Toyoda and Tada might have wanted to do anyway for once. They already have a lower market sports car in the lineup that is 2+2 at half the cost and almost half the horsepower anyway and even within the confines of having to coordinate with what another automaker also wants from a shared platform this allowed them to try making a two seater Supra for the first time.

There can be more than one coinciding reason for an automotive design decision. That often applies to many industries where many things have to be balanced within limitations while still turning out a good product.

Even the Supra MKIV was designed under limitations put onto its designer by top brass of the day. Isao Tsuzuki did not initially want to use the Z30 Soarer platform as its basis, feeling it was too big for what he wanted to do with the GenIV car. He was given no choice by upper management and so he made it the best possible sportscar within that limitation.

KahnBB6 · Jan 16, 2020

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2...-for-86-brz-successor-more-power-newish-name/

Viselord · Jan 16, 2020

Anyone have an idea of how far into development the 86 is? I was thinking of maybe waiting and deciding on either Supra or 86.

hanswurst24 · Jan 16, 2020

Viselord said:
Anyone have an idea of how far into development the 86 is? I was thinking of maybe waiting and deciding on either Supra or 86.

Keep an eye on Tokyo Motor Show 2021...

A70TTR · Jan 16, 2020

Viselord said:
Anyone have an idea of how far into development the 86 is? I was thinking of maybe waiting and deciding on either Supra or 86.

It's a decent ways off (longer than I'd want to wait if I was considering a new vehicle right now).

SupraFiend · Jan 16, 2020

KahnBB6 said:
I don’t think you have that “story” cornered particularly such that you can singlehandedly “end” it.

Besides, I was primarily referring to the GT86/BRZ with my comment. Both Toyota and Subaru wanted a 2+2 coupe. The engine was going to be Subaru’s anyway and it just so happened to help keep the car’s wheelbase short while allowing for those back seats.

And they’re not useless. They’re not what you’d find in a Mercedes coupe but they fit me in the back just fine and measured about the same as my old Prelude’s rear seating area (and almost the same trunk space). For its size I was able to shove an obscene amount of stuff in that old car driving cross country and the 86/BRZ is about the same in that regard.

Hell, my SC’s back seat area may be bigger but it’s actually not quite as useful since I have a 20gal gas tank right behind those rear seats and only so much depth to the trunk.

Only a very big coupe is going to have amazing rear seating and rear cargo volume.

In the real world people do value small cars with back seats over two seaters when they can only keep one car at a time or for whatever reason need them for practical reasons. Oh and there’s insurance to consider too.

The Supra MKV being a two seater falls into line with the Z4 always having been a two seater yes... but consider if ditching the rear seat tradition was actually something Toyoda and Tada might have wanted to do anyway for once. They already have a lower market sports car in the lineup that is 2+2 at half the cost and almost half the horsepower anyway and even within the confines of having to coordinate with what another automaker also wants from a shared platform this allowed them to try making a two seater Supra for the first time.

There can be more than one coinciding reason for an automotive design decision. That often applies to many industries where many things have to be balanced within limitations while still turning out a good product.

Even the Supra MKIV was designed under limitations put onto its designer by top brass of the day. Isao Tsuzuki did not initially want to use the Z30 Soarer platform as its basis, feeling it was too big for what he wanted to do with the GenIV car. He was given no choice by upper management and so he made it the best possible sportscar within that limitation.

I wasn't talking about the GT86....

Everything else you said is true, but having a 2+2 arrangement was not an option because, sharing a 2 seater roadster platform.

Yes, I like shitty rear seats too. Actually, the mk5's lack of any rear seat is the ultimate reason I can't buy the thing. I have a kid, if I can't use the car to take my entire family somewhere out of town, its kind of useless to me. I already have a dedicated 2 seat race car.

SupraFiend · Jan 16, 2020

KahnBB6 said:
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2...-for-86-brz-successor-more-power-newish-name/

Sounds like the new car will be more of a Celica then an 86.

Bryster · Jan 16, 2020

SupraFiend said:
Sounds like the new car will be more of a Celica then an 86.

The next 86 sounds like it will be more zippy than the current one, so weight loss seems likely

KahnBB6 · Jan 16, 2020

SupraFiend said:
I wasn't talking about the GT86....

Everything else you said is true, but having a 2+2 arrangement was not an option because, sharing a 2 seater roadster platform.

Yes, I like shitty rear seats too. Actually, the mk5's lack of any rear seat is the ultimate reason I can't buy the thing. I have a kid, if I can't use the car to take my entire family somewhere out of town, its kind of useless to me. I already have a dedicated 2 seat race car.

I was talking about the GT86 and multiple reasons why it always needed to be made as a 2+2. And the rear seats are not “shitty” in my opinion. It’s a small sports car so it they’re going to be small back there but I found them to be decently useful for the size, having previously owned another sports coupe of similar interior dimensions to the 86.

A two seater sportscar being a no-go for many practical reasons is something I also understand. I was considering a Z a while back but couldn’t justify it at the time as an everyday car with only two seats and a big rear strut brace blocking all the useable cargo space in the hatch. Infiniti G manual coupes with the Brembo package were much better candidates as was the FR-S/GT86/BRZ. Same with early model GTO’s (but they’re heavy and have narrow wheel wells). SC’s also fit that bill in addition to the plug and play drivetrain options.

I required a coupe with a stick shift, 2+2 seats and a trunk or hatch cargo area.

Now I think I just need something like a slightly larger version of small boxy Kei work/commuter van to supplement a small two seater sports car... but of course we don’t get anything so basic and sensible in the U.S.

I digress though as even a 2+2 Supra MKIV isn’t the most ideal everyday passenger hauler beyond one extra person.

Still... this two seater layout may have not been the compromise you seem to think it is but rather an opportunity as Tada saw it to take the Supra in a new direction and closer to its 2000GT lineage (two seater).

Toyota views this as a sports vehicle lineup big picture:

In hierarchical order:
—Supra two seater
—future MR2(??)
—GT86/GR86 2+2
—future Corolla GR-4
—probably nothing below this but who knows?

jm6k · Jan 17, 2020

A70TTR said:
It's a decent ways off (longer than I'd want to wait if I was considering a new vehicle right now).

Thank you, that helps me quite a bit.

A70TTR · Jan 17, 2020

Bryster said:
The next 86 sounds like it will be more zippy than the current one, so weight loss seems likely

egh lol, doesn't get much lighter than 27-2800lbs for a car of that size. It was actually amazing the 86 weighed that given the same size cars in the 90s weighed about the same (S-chassis etc).

KahnBB6 said:
Toyota views this as a sports vehicle lineup big picture:

In hierarchical order:
—Supra two seater
—future MR2(??)
—GT86/GR86 2+2
—future Corolla GR-4
—probably nothing below this but who knows?

Corolla GR4 may actually slot in above the GR86 (Yaris GR4 is $40k), at least price wise, but we will have to wait and see

tfoxyr · Jan 17, 2020

I read today that the 86 will be based on a toyota platform but i cannot see how that can happen since the engine is going to be from subaru. If they use the toyota platform then the new 3 cylinder from yaris would make sense, i personally would welcome that, but this leaves subaru in an awkward position.

Still very confusing news for me, my guess is that the platform will remain subaru sourced and be just a hack from sgp.

Toyota Presents World Debut of the New 2022 GR 86

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