Toyota GR Supra Races Into 2021 with More Power and First-Ever Four-Cylinder Turbo Model

digicidal

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I still think we could swap the head.
It's likely that by the time you've done that - which unless Toyota does it as part of a mea culpa will void your warranty - you're at least halfway through the depreciation involved in just trading it in on a new one and getting it all back under warranty. Plus there's zero downtime in that scenario... just money lost - which is what almost every car is on one level or another.

On the other hand, if you're voiding the warranty anyway.. a DP and tune alone will make up the difference and then some. If you're building a "monster" - then it's probably better to just grab a 2021 in the first place. (Or a used MKIV if you can find one for a decent price). :hide:
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KahnBB6

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Yes. you are absolutely correct.

The 2020 Supra has 2 exhaust outlets out of the engine block which bolts directly onto the twin scroll turbo.
Whoa... hang on a moment.

You're saying the B58C cylinder head HAS NO EXHAUST PORTS AT ALL and instead *routes the exhaust gasses THROUGH the short block* somehow...? So the exhaust exit on a MY2020 supposedly goes not through the integrated manifold on the 2020 cylinder head but through the lower block somewhere BELOW the cylinder head??

That doesn't make sense with modern passenger vehicle engines we have today. It's not what I have seen in the B58C exploded diagrams.

Yes, on a B58C cylinder head there is no traditional exhaust manifold because it is cast INTO the cylinder head itself. As you stated, the OEM turbocharger bolts right up to the two exhaust exit ports... but those are located ON that MY2020 cylinder head.

But this is the first time I've heard it claimed that those two exhaust ports actually exit BELOW the cylinder head and head gasket somewhere along the cylinder walls of the lower block assembly.

That isn't supported in any of the EPC diagrams for the MY2020 B58C engine.


The 2 exhaust outlets are in the cylinder head (not the block).

The 2021 6 exhaust outlets are also in the cylinder head, not the block.
^^ This is what I have always understood every "integrated exhaust manifold" design to mean.

And this all brings me to my main question:

Are the MY2020 and MY2021 B58C & D *lower engine blocks* so substantially different from each other that it's impossible to swap a MY2021 6-port cylinder head onto a MY2020 lower engine block? As in... are the bore spaces different? Are the oil and water passages different?


I'm not really interested in the debate of "this one is better than that one" as far as the cylinder heads go. I'm just interested in block and cylinder head interchangeability.

As for the OEM turbochargers, of course you will only be able to use a MY2020 turbo on a MY2020 2-port cylinder head and you'll only be able to use a MY2021 external steel exhaust manifold and turbo on a MY2021 cylinder head. Those are fixed parameters that cannot be interchanged.

But the question remains of whether a B58C and B58D lower engine block assembly (NOT including any cylinder head) are substantially different from one another or not in their raw castings.

Because if the raw B58C & D blocks are the same (not including compression ratio changes with different pistons) then that means you very much can swap between a 2-port and 6-port cylinder head all you want to, assuming any other direct injection fuel system equipment and other parts will fit or will have aftermarket support to swap over with the cylinder head.

"But is it worth it?" is another debate entirely. I'm just focused on whether or not the blocks are the same or substantially similar enough to allow swapping over the cylinder head.
 

JasonO

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You should read my posted content rather than eating popcorn while wearing "3D" glasses if you're interested in the 2021 Supra's major engine upgrade.

Then again, you may not be. It's become clear to me that many 2020 Supra owners are in denial about this and would rather fabricate pseudo-engineering arguments or ignore the subject altogether.

The fact of the matter is that Toyota really did a number on 2020 Supra owners. I'd be p*ssed off had I bought a 2020 Supra, too. However, I wouldn't be in denial. I'd instead drive the 2020 car for a couple of years and get into a late model year 2022 Supra. Thing is, Toyota might install the M3/M4 S58 engine into the Supra in 2023. :dunno:
So your argument is we should be pissed at Toyota then in two years give them a ton of money to be disappointed twice if the S58 gets put into the 2023. Are you a masochist or something?
 

KahnBB6

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^^ If Toyota gets to sell limited yearly numbers of GRMN Supra MKV's with factory S58 engines in 2023 at $85k++ I think it would be a great thing. IF they were to do that. That means there would be an even higher performance FACTORY engine configuration that will always exist in Toyota's parts system and service literature, not to mention it would count as a factory stock USDM engine configuration for the Supra MKV according to EPA and CARB documentation. Long term that would be a huge plus for the A90 Supra.

No guarantee BMW will go for that but if they did allow it I'm pretty sure it would cost a LOT of money when dealer markups are factored in and would represent significantly lower volume production as compared to the regular 382whp B58D, 335whp B58C Euros and 258whp B48 Supras.
 

KahnBB6

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My thoughts on this are one or more of the following:
1) Toyota had already confirmed problems (emissions-wise) with more powerful version... and didn't want to deal with producing two separate versions for the first year release - which is wise considering what a fustercluck dealer-wise the rollout was with a single SKU (well 3 of them but really they're just option levels honestly). This is likely also the reason they delayed 2.0 version release here.
2) Part of the deal with BMW was not to release a faster Supra than the Z4 in the same year in an effort to avoid cannibalization of each other's sales. This is supported due to the fact that the current setup is tuned to almost exactly mirror the street performance of the Z4 despite many differences, weight being primary.
3) Toyota thought the B58C was plenty "good enough" and hadn't expected how much "...but the C8 is only a little more expensive and is so much faster!" chatter was going to be blanketing social media (and traditional media for that matter). I remember Tada-san admonishing reporters at one event with something along the lines of "sure it could have handled more power... but it doesn't need it - it's perfectly balanced now."

No idea if any of those hits the mark or are way off... but Toyota (IMO at least) has always delivered cars with absolute shit performance but impressive reliability. Maybe they were trying to do the same with the MKV as well... but have already had so many complaints/problems that they decided "Fuck it... just give them the better engine... we're not going to win on the reliability front anyway with this one" :rolleyes1:
You are correct about the reasons why the B58C exists (very strict emissions compliance in certain markets) and I agree with you about the likely multiple reasons why the first globally sold model year got the B58C variant.

However I beg to differ about Toyota's "absolute shit performance" despite their strong reliability. That's certainly not how my stock 2JZ-GTE feels every time I get it down the road, lol. Modified it would be even better but it's the exact opposite of "shit" performance even in full stock configuration.

Same for the 1JZ-GTE twin turbo, 1JZ-GTE VVT-i single turbo, 3S-GTE gens 1-4, BEAMS 3S-GE, 4A-GE and 2ZZ-GE powered cars.

Granted now we're talking about BMW engines with only some very limited Toyota input into their design and revision but as far as Toyota's past history of sporty engines goes...
 
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jm6k

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Patiently waiting for 2022....all this is nothing new. As I was told previously, 2022 would bring "dramatic" changes. Guess we will have to wait some more...:D
Dramatic changes to the whole car, or a dramatic GRMN model available?

You should read my posted content rather than eating popcorn while wearing "3D" glasses if you're interested in the 2021 Supra's major engine upgrade.

Then again, you may not be. It's become clear to me that many 2020 Supra owners are in denial about this and would rather fabricate pseudo-engineering arguments or ignore the subject altogether.

The fact of the matter is that Toyota really did a number on 2020 Supra owners. I'd be p*ssed off had I bought a 2020 Supra, too. However, I wouldn't be in denial. I'd instead drive the 2020 car for a couple of years and get into a late model year 2022 Supra. Thing is, Toyota might install the M3/M4 S58 engine into the Supra in 2023. :dunno:
You're likely correct and no one understands compressible flow fluid dynamics like you do, but let it rest man. Holy shit.
 

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You are correct about the reasons why the B58C exists (very strict emissions compliance in certain markets) and I agree with you about the likely multiple reasons why the first globally sold model year got the B58C variant.

However I beg to differ about Toyota's "absolute shit performance" despite their strong reliability. That's certainly not how my stock 2JZ-GTE feels every time I get it down the road, lol. Modified it would be even better but it's the exact opposite of "shit" performance even in full stock configuration.

Same for the 1JZ-GTE twin turbo, 1JZ-GTE VVT-i single turbo, 3S-GTE gens 1-4, BEAMS 3S-GE, 4A-GE and 2ZZ-GE powered cars.

Granted now we're talking about BMW engines with only some very limited Toyota input into their design and revision but as far as Toyota's past history of sporty engines goes...
While not my kind of car, the Lexus RCF (467 HP 5.0 liter normally aspirated V8) is hardly a slouch. That engine also employs Toyota's outstanding D4-S dual (both port and direct) fuel injection system. As such, valve and chamber carbon buildup concerns are eradicated.

https://www.lexus.com/models/RCF
 

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Also, the 6-port engine shipped in the Z4 in early 2019. Is there a reason the Z4 got it and the Supra did not? Hard to say, but the engine was available and in use at that point.
The 2021 Supra actually uses the BMW M340i's engine rather than the Z4 M40i's engine. While the engines are extremely similar to one-another, the Supra/M340i engine's compression ratio is 10.2:1, The Z4 M40i's compression ratio is 11:1. Looking at road test data for both the M340i and Z4 M40i, it appears that the lower compression version (allows for higher boost?) is slightly more powerful - despite the engine's carrying the same output ratings.

More to your point, the M340i's engine was also available in early 2019.
 

Supra Guy

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All this buyer's remorse and yet I haven't seen anyone disappointed that they didn't hold out for the 4 cylinder model. :dunno:
Well chances are if they were willing to spend 50K and up why they want a cheaper and lower power one? To me the MY21 2.0 is for those that can’t afford the 50K and up and just want a Supra and not an 86. I think it’s good to have more options from an 86, Supra 2.0 or 3.0.
 

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That new 6 head head looks like it’s going to have a some nice ass top end. Sorta odd why ours only got two ports...
yup you are 100% right on that, its going to clock better 0-60, 1/8th 1/4 mile times. And from a roll its going to be very obvious stock for stock mod for mod. Calling it now... real world testing... this new Supra from 40-140 is going to put about 3 cars+ on the 2020s
 

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yup you are 100% right on that, its going to clock better 0-60, 1/8th 1/4 mile times. And from a roll its going to be very obvious stock for stock mod for mod. Calling it now... real world testing... this new Supra from 40-140 is going to put about 3 cars+ on the 2020s
lol. Idk about 3 cars hahahaha
 

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