Toyota GR Supra Races Into 2021 with More Power and First-Ever Four-Cylinder Turbo Model

2JZ-No-Sh*t

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All this buyer's remorse and yet I haven't seen anyone disappointed that they didn't hold out for the 4 cylinder model. :dunno:
Exactly, for the unofficial $42k price tag, imo that thing is DOA.
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ynguldyn

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The 2021 Supra actually uses the BMW M340i's engine rather than the Z4 M40i's engine. While the engines are extremely similar to one-another, the Supra/M340i engine's compression ratio is 10.2:1, The Z4 M40i's compression ratio is 11:1. Looking at road test data for both the M340i and Z4 M40i, it appears that the lower compression version (allows for higher boost?) is slightly more powerful - despite the engine's carrying the same output ratings.
Are you sure you're comparing apples to apples? Is the data from the same markets? Because the whole thing is a pretty mess. Here are all the versions of these cars I can remember off the top of my head:
  • M340i B58D, US emissions
  • M340i B58D, WLTP emissions
  • M340i B58D, non-US and non-WLTP emissions
  • Z4 M40i B58D, US emissions
  • Z4 M40i B58C, WLTP
  • Z4 M40i B58D, non-US non-WLTP
  • 2020 Supra B58C, US
  • 2020-2021 Supra B58C, WLTP
  • 2021 Supra B58D, US
  • 2021 Supra B58D, non-US non-WLTP
There are two key points: 1. M340i is the only platform capable of installing WLTP emissions equipment necessary for B58D; 2. Comparisons of US, WLTP Europe, and non-WLTP rest of the world must be done very carefully.
 

EastCoastSupra

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Nope. Different engine blocks: "B" block in B58D, "C" block in B58C.

And there are definitely more differences you can find by comparing part numbers of
https://bimmercat.com/bmw/en/search/selectCar/G29/Roa/BMW+Z4+M40i+B58D/ECE/11 vs
https://bimmercat.com/bmw/en/search/selectCar/G29/Roa/BMW+Z4+M40i+B58C/ECE/11
I will leave that as an exercise for the readers.
From what I can see. It’s doable. Cylinder head cover is the same part number and it looks like everything is the same between heads except the 6 ports bored out instead of 2
 

KahnBB6

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While not my kind of car, the Lexus RCF (467 HP 5.0 liter normally aspirated V8) is hardly a slouch. That engine also employs Toyota's outstanding D4-S dual (both port and direct) fuel injection system. As such, valve and chamber carbon buildup concerns are eradicated.

https://www.lexus.com/models/RCF
I agree! The RC-F has another Toyota gem engine. Also before it the 1st gen IS-F V8.
 

KahnBB6

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Nope. Different engine blocks: "B" block in B58D, "C" block in B58C.

And there are definitely more differences you can find by comparing part numbers of
https://bimmercat.com/bmw/en/search/selectCar/G29/Roa/BMW+Z4+M40i+B58D/ECE/11 vs
https://bimmercat.com/bmw/en/search/selectCar/G29/Roa/BMW+Z4+M40i+B58C/ECE/11
I will leave that as an exercise for the readers.
ynguldyn, thank you. I had hoped this wasn’t the case that the engine blocks (not just the cylinder heads) are different castings.
 

justbake

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ynguldyn, thank you. I had hoped this wasn’t the case that the engine blocks (not just the cylinder heads) are different castings.
That doesn’t say anything about the casings being different, just that the complete short blocks are different
 

A70TTR

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So this other car..., when could we expect you to spill some beans on this? My main question would be, is there going to be a collaboration with another brand (perhaps another German brand) to produce this car, or is it an in-house deal? I understand you can only say so much, but It's always fun to poke and prod a little. Thanks for keeping this place fun!
Fully in house dev, TMG/GR, like with the GT4 :)
 

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While not my kind of car, the Lexus RCF (467 HP 5.0 liter normally aspirated V8) is hardly a slouch. That engine also employs Toyota's outstanding D4-S dual (both port and direct) fuel injection system. As such, valve and chamber carbon buildup concerns are eradicated.

https://www.lexus.com/models/RCF
I agree! The RC-F has another Toyota gem engine. Also before it the 1st gen IS-F V8.
Have you owned one? I did for 2.5 years and couldn't wait to get out of it! Granted most of the problems were related to the ECU and transmission, and not the engine, but that's my point. Toyota took what should have been a decent platform, gave it a chassis that was already ponderous handling wise, and then completely neutered it between throttle response and gearing. Great stereo and decent trunk space - so I guess there's that going for it - it's why you pay $75K+ for a "sports car" right?

Granted they fixed some of that with the "Track Edition" release... but now you're in another price bracket. It's certainly better than driving all the rest of the Lexus line, but it was a pale shadow of what it could have been had it not weighed over 2 tons and been a 3-car frankenstein chassis. Compared to even the 2020 MKV it's a bit weak... hell, compared to my G37S it felt a bit weak (not in acceleration but in handling and overall livability).

What I will hand to them easily was the engine sound - that V8 was heavenly over 4K... almost made you forget that a Mustang or Camaro was faster for half the price. If it weren't for the fact that the first year depreciation was close to $35K I'd be much more bitter... I only paid $50K for mine... the original owner paid just over $80K! They got every option including the cold weather package - then dumped it after 10 months and 12K miles. :crazy:
 

KahnBB6

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That doesn’t say anything about the casings being different, just that the complete short blocks are different
Ah, ok. So at minimum that would refer to compression ratio differences denoting one full *short block* assembly vs another.

We need the part numbers for the raw blocks sans rotating assemblies... if they are even sold bare.
 

digicidal

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You are correct about the reasons why the B58C exists (very strict emissions compliance in certain markets) and I agree with you about the likely multiple reasons why the first globally sold model year got the B58C variant.

However I beg to differ about Toyota's "absolute shit performance" despite their strong reliability. That's certainly not how my stock 2JZ-GTE feels every time I get it down the road, lol. Modified it would be even better but it's the exact opposite of "shit" performance even in full stock configuration.

Same for the 1JZ-GTE twin turbo, 1JZ-GTE VVT-i single turbo, 3S-GTE gens 1-4, BEAMS 3S-GE, 4A-GE and 2ZZ-GE powered cars.

Granted now we're talking about BMW engines with only some very limited Toyota input into their design and revision but as far as Toyota's past history of sporty engines goes...
I apologize for the confusion, I misspoke (though I've clarified in other posts):
Toyota, in the 21st Century, is about cars with "absolute shit performance" but strong reliability - although my last few are calling in to question the second part as well since they've had many problems from the factory. Admittedly with the ever growing pile of regulations, both safety and emissions, car companies have their hands tied in a number of areas. The 90's were different for everyone - but they were quite exceptionally different as far as Toyota and Nissan were concerned IMO.

Ah, ok. So at minimum that would refer to compression ratio differences denoting one full *short block* assembly vs another.

We need the part numbers for the raw blocks sans rotating assemblies... if they are even sold bare.
It's certainly no real indication, but the technical drawing certainly seem like it would be possible, it appears all assemblies are in the same positions so likely the bolts are as well. Could easily be like it was with the B16/B18 heads on 90's Hondas... swapping being fairly easy. I wonder what the results would be in this case... higher flowing head with higher compression pistons block. It's the coolant flows that I think might be the "wrench in the works" possibly.
 

KahnBB6

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Have you owned one? I did for 2.5 years and couldn't wait to get out of it! Granted most of the problems were related to the ECU and transmission, and not the engine, but that's my point. Toyota took what should have been a decent platform, gave it a chassis that was already ponderous handling wise, and then completely neutered it between throttle response and gearing. Great stereo and decent trunk space - so I guess there's that going for it - it's why you pay $75K+ for a "sports car" right?

Granted they fixed some of that with the "Track Edition" release... but now you're in another price bracket. It's certainly better than driving all the rest of the Lexus line, but it was a pale shadow of what it could have been had it not weighed over 2 tons and been a 3-car frankenstein chassis. Compared to even the 2020 MKV it's a bit weak... hell, compared to my G37S it felt a bit weak (not in acceleration but in handling and overall livability).

What I will hand to them easily was the engine sound - that V8 was heavenly over 4K... almost made you forget that a Mustang or Camaro was faster for half the price. If it weren't for the fact that the first year depreciation was close to $35K I'd be much more bitter... I only paid $50K for mine... the original owner paid just over $80K! They got every option including the cold weather package - then dumped it after 10 months and 12K miles. :crazy:
I haven't owned either the old IS-F or current RC-F, no so I will have to defer to your personal experience with those engines. I completely agree about the chassis design (over 4,000 lbs for a midsize performance coupe? Woof) and the transmissions and gearing they were both paired with but the engines alone, even if hampered by the cars they were fitted into, are still impressive compared to a ho-hum Camry engine.

That's really what I'm reacting to overall. Even if the cars were not ideal they were at least the result of some form of genuine effort. As in those engines set the cars apart from a badge-engineered "F-Sport" or a "TRD Edition" of the Camry and Avalon which have no drivetrain changes at all.

Just looking at those 5.0L V8's by themselves they're cool. That having been said, I'm not convinced many people will attempt swapping them much into other cars let alone attempt to fit other transmissions to them.
 

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This is the kind of special edition I am looking forward to, when Toyota finally gets their hands dity : )
Now that is worth trading up for... too bad the price is likely to be "like with the GT4" as well. :( I hope for their sake they can keep it under the price of a Cayman GTS 4.0... because that is ticking all the boxes IMO.
 

KahnBB6

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Now that is worth trading up for... too bad the price is likely to be "like with the GT4" as well. :( I hope for their sake they can keep it under the price of a Cayman GTS 4.0... because that is ticking all the boxes IMO.
From what A70 has said before... somewhere between $85k-$95k MSRP?? And that is before the inevitable insane dealer markups which will surely bump the price well into six figures.

Or maybe it really will cost six figures to start with? Only Toyota bean counters, Akio and Tada know for sure at this point.

I agree, that one is so far shaping up to be what I expect from a top-range high(er) performance Supra MKV. I still want a manual transmission but I know the GRMN probably won't have one (more likely a 7-speed DCT?) and if they're finally re-engineering those cars in-house at Toyota it's going to be quite a machine.
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