👣 Official: Toyota Announces Manual Transmission Supra!

KahnBB6 · Dec 31, 2019

The S58 probably isn’t in the pipeline. Possible... but only if Toyota pays a LOT for the privilege. I’d say that with the money saved on engineering an inline-six engine of their own Toyota could theoretically spend some of their own budget to tune the B58C/D much further than 382hp for production... but that probably hits up against what can be done at the manufacturing and assembly level at Steyr-Magna.

Toyota will do something for the GRMN whatever their approach to higher power ends up being.

F1 Silver Arrows · Jan 1, 2020

KahnBB6 said:
The S58 probably isn’t in the pipeline. Possible... but only if Toyota pays a LOT for the privilege. I’d say that with the money saved on engineering an inline-six engine of their own Toyota could theoretically spend some of their own budget to tune the B58C/D much further than 382hp for production... but that probably hits up against what can be done at the manufacturing and assembly level at Steyr-Magna.

Toyota will do something for the GRMN whatever their approach to higher power ends up being.

IMHO the best course of action would be to make the BMW engine to even more of a Toyota engine. They already made some major changes in the parts, tuning, and durability standards as well. The next step is to morph that as a fully-fledged Toyota engine and decrease the BMW parts and involvement within this car.

This way, it's within the emissions and noise regulations and you can still be a crazy human being at the same time, as well as the fact that they save hundreds of millions of dollars. If spending 500 million or even 1 billion on one engine only is too much (which it is in this case), spend only 50 or hell even 100 million to change the existing powerplant (because you already have a solid and a strong base to start off with) and work with that.

This would be more cost-effective than getting a S58 for a GRMN Supra and you're future-proofing yourself for future generations of the Supra. And hey, you can evolve this engine too!

I've always stated that you need to have to start somewhere, and this is a pretty damn good start.

Bryster · Jan 3, 2020

JasonO said:
I agree with you there. Nothing make sense with the other rumors and BMWs history with their premium power plants. Toyota could get desperate with the C8 coming out, but I think 2022+ is more likely for that kind of move.

The rumors on the 2021 output increase is 40 hp give or take. That is well within the B58’s capabilities.

If the Supra does get the M power plant, I can’t see the price staying remotely the same as BMW will make Toyota pay. I also cannot see that premium being worth the rumored 40 hp increase if that is how Toyota is getting it. I’d rather self insure myself in the B58 and throw a couple grand at it to get double the 40 hp increase vs the 10k premium I could see an S58 Supra carrying.

I’d believe a manual 4 cyl before the S58.

I see the S58 Supra going for AT LEAST RCF money

XtremeMaC · Jan 3, 2020

F1 Silver Arrows said:
IMHO the best course of action would be to make the BMW engine to even more of a Toyota engine. They already made some major changes in the parts, tuning, and durability standards as well. The next step is to morph that as a fully-fledged Toyota engine and decrease the BMW parts and involvement within this car.

This way, it's within the emissions and noise regulations and you can still be a crazy human being at the same time, as well as the fact that they save hundreds of millions of dollars. If spending 500 million or even 1 billion on one engine only is too much (which it is in this case), spend only 50 or hell even 100 million to change the existing powerplant (because you already have a solid and a strong base to start off with) and work with that.

This would be more cost-effective than getting a S58 for a GRMN Supra and you're future-proofing yourself for future generations of the Supra. And hey, you can evolve this engine too!

I've always stated that you need to have to start somewhere, and this is a pretty damn good start.

That'd ultimately be a different vehicle. I don't think they can justify this much expenditure on a face lift type change.... which then I'd assume they'd want to use the Mazda co-developed I6 engine....
ps. YTD Supra US sales 2884.

KahnBB6 · Jan 3, 2020

Whatever the GRMN edition is powered by it won’t be a mere face-lift. But they either get there with an S58 or by putting much more than a 40hp power bump into the B58C/D.

The model is currently missing additional variants and performance oriented options, etc.

The upcoming Mazda I6 engine family has me intrigued but so far it seems to be aimed at the sporty luxury car market rather than hardcore sports car applications.

F1 Silver Arrows · Jan 3, 2020

XtremeMaC said:
That'd ultimately be a different vehicle. I don't think they can justify this much expenditure on a face lift type change.... which then I'd assume they'd want to use the Mazda co-developed I6 engine....
ps. YTD Supra US sales 2884.

Well they're going to have to progress at some point. BMW has never given out their M engines to anyone, and if they are considering to finally do it now, then they're definitely going to be doing it at an insane price. Toyota has a B58 now. The majority of the development work is done that would normally cost Toyota a shit load of money to R&D to build a brand new inline-six engine to this point.

Also, sales look pretty good. With a manual it will be greatly improved. Giving necessary updates are what is necessary for the Supra to survive.

Also, NO Mazda engine please. Toyota got a shit load of fire for using a BMW engine (albeit changed). Do you honestly think a Mazda engine is better? Also I don't think the engine is codeveloped. The "plan" was that after Mazda builds it, Toyota just uses it after, which is just ridiculous.

We shouldn't settle for a Mazda engine in a Lexus or a Toyota product. We partnered with BMW for many reasons, and that sweet, sweet inline-six was one of them. Mazda doesn't have many positives compared to BMW in terms of partnering up with.

Jeff Lange · Jan 4, 2020

BMW gave their M engine to McLaren for the F1. The Supra is basically the same. :dunno:

Jeff

Supraboi7 · Jan 4, 2020

Jeff Lange said:
BMW gave their M engine to McLaren for the F1. The Supra is basically the same.

Jeff

Thank you someone had to say it

KahnBB6 · Jan 4, 2020

That’s true, Jeff. Thank you. They have done it before.

MA617M · Jan 4, 2020

F1 Silver Arrows said:
IMHO the best course of action would be to make the BMW engine to even more of a Toyota engine. They already made some major changes in the parts, tuning, and durability standards as well. The next step is to morph that as a fully-fledged Toyota engine and decrease the BMW parts and involvement within this car.

This way, it's within the emissions and noise regulations and you can still be a crazy human being at the same time, as well as the fact that they save hundreds of millions of dollars. If spending 500 million or even 1 billion on one engine only is too much (which it is in this case), spend only 50 or hell even 100 million to change the existing powerplant (because you already have a solid and a strong base to start off with) and work with that.

This would be more cost-effective than getting a S58 for a GRMN Supra and you're future-proofing yourself for future generations of the Supra. And hey, you can evolve this engine too!

I've always stated that you need to have to start somewhere, and this is a pretty damn good start.

Have to remember - the A90 will most likely be the last generation of Supra at least in petrol-powered form - straight from Tada's mouth and makes sense with the global regulations coming in the near future

KahnBB6 · Jan 4, 2020

MA617M said:
Have to remember - the A90 will most likely be the last generation of Supra at least in petrol-powered form - straight from Tada's mouth and makes sense with the global regulations coming in the near future

^^ This. The A90, even while tied up with BMW, is Toyota’s last chance to really play with fully gas/petrol non-hybrid engines in whatever configurations they want to in a current production Supra.

I’m sure it will remain that way as long as the A90 is made but once they get to designing an A100 it will undoubtedly be some form of performance gas-electric hybrid or a full electric with newer solid state batteries and/or super capacitors.

Hopefully they won’t turn it into a crossover/CUV like some other manufacturers have with their iconic models... or an autonomous bubble-mobile. No good reason they should need to do either of those things for a future A100 just because the Supra would become partially or fully electric propelled.

...But that’s quite a few years off. And it *could* be good so long as it is 100% designed as a sportscar first like all the Supras before it. Long time before we need to even go there to consider it...

The A90 is brand new and we’re just cracking into the B58C and have yet to see what Toyota has planned for next year and beyond. It’s a fun time for the Supra and all of us who love it.

XtremeMaC · Jan 5, 2020

it's down to money. If Toyota wants to overspend and make generous offer, they potentially could convince BMW to give them M engine...
I don't know if you were being sarcastic Jeff, but while being true that BMW can supply M, a McLaren F1 situation was hardly ever in the same boat as a 5th gen Supra... primarily because BMW at the time didn't have any car in the class to compete with.
If BMW does supply an M engine to Toyota, they'd be shooting themselves in the foot... For sure I don't know all the insight on how A90 came to be, but dying Z4 sales that even BMW is about to remove from lineup, Toyota pushing for it, etc. the A90 project came to be. Who knows how much they have and are paying BMW for... If they were to hand out S58, it'll compete with all recent and upcoming M series if Toyota was to build such cars. If they would, then like A90, maybe gentleman's agreement, more likely a strictly bound written agreement of sorts, for sure limit what Toyota can or cannot do. Will Toyota want this headache going forward, we'll see.. *speculation off*

Jeff Lange · Jan 7, 2020

Following up on this, it does seem like the 2021 may come in 2.0L form in North America, and I suspect the 2021 will be coming quite early in the 2020 calendar year.

If that 2.0L comes with a manual, it will mean all the parts we need to do a manual 3.0L will be available off the shelf except the ECU calibration. If Toyota can fill that last little gap, even in some odd/specific form, that would be nice. If not, it can be done in other ways.

Not bad.

Re: McLaren F1/Supra and the S58

I was being partially sarcastic. The F1/Supra situation is very much not the same, but BMW is not opposed to giving an M engine simply because M is theirs. In Racing they’ve also used “M” engines as customer engines in many series as well. They certainly don’t seem to have a big problem with saying “X’s car uses BMW M engines.” I also get the feeling BMW is trying to distance itself from the similarities between the Z4 and Supra from a marketing perspective and may not consider allowing the Supra to have an M engine to be shooting themselves in the foot if they really consider the cars in different demographics.

Additionally, BMW provides their non-M engines to Toyota for various cars which actually do compete with their non-M cars. Those sales are likely a bigger financial concern than potential BMW M owners leaving to buy a Supra - many of them want a BMW M car because they are BMW enthusiasts not because of the letter on the engine’s cover.

Jeff

johnny_10196 · Feb 19, 2020

http://www.superstreetonline.com/features/news/2021-toyota-supra-engine-and-a91/

Biggest Demand: Where the hell is the manual transmission?

While you're all begging and pleading for a manual transmission, it doesn't look like it's going to happen anytime in the near future (although European Auto Group in Texas is offering the conversion if you want to drop some coin). It's not that Toyota isn't listening, because I heard from both management and engineering, they know very well the tens of thousands of people asking. The multi-million-dollar question is how many of these keyboard warriors are legitimate buyers of the Supra, and who they buy it even if it were more expensive or the performance was compromised? Have these people driven the current Supra with its eight-speed ZF automatic?

Supra chief engineer Tetsuya Tada addressed my question head-on, and he explained that he's actually tested various manual gearboxes on the Supra already. Yes, it's not that they didn't consider it, but they've put it through testing! At the end of all the research, the truth was in front of everyone. Today's automatic transmissions are so technologically advanced and faster, that reverting to a manual would be a step back for the advancement of the Supra. In their testing and through testimonials by pro drivers, the manual would perform worse and also disrupt the overall dynamics of the car.

Tada-san goes on to give examples that companies like Porsche are selling less and less manual-equipped cars year after year, and even the new C8 Corvette won't be offered in a manual. Tada-san also mentioned to me that back in the days of the Mk4 Supra, the automatics were inferior back then, but if they had the technology and strength of the automatic transmissions back then as we do today, it would've been a different story already. So, in closing, continue to voice your opinion, but don't hold your breath.

supraboi · Feb 19, 2020

Another article from MT.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/why-2021-toyota-supra-doesnt-have-manual-transmission/

👣 Official: Toyota Announces Manual Transmission Supra!

Only interested if it comes in manual?

Yes - must have manual

No - the auto is what I want

KahnBB6

Well-Known Member

F1 Silver Arrows

Well-Known Member

Bryster

Well-Known Member

XtremeMaC

Well-Known Member

KahnBB6

Well-Known Member

F1 Silver Arrows

Well-Known Member

Jeff Lange

Well-Known Member

Supraboi7

Well-Known Member

KahnBB6

Well-Known Member

MA617M

Well-Known Member

KahnBB6

Well-Known Member

XtremeMaC

Well-Known Member

Jeff Lange

Well-Known Member

johnny_10196

Well-Known Member

supraboi

Well-Known Member

Similar threads