Audio upgrade options

tadda

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Here is latest update I received from OEMAudio+ which doesn't sound as if they are going to have anything released soon...
"We are literally back to active R&D with the Supra (the CA lock-down slowed thing down unfortunately). I anticipate us having an update that shapes expectations by the end of the month."
Here is latest update regarding Bavsound's Revenant amplifier ...
"We are currently in development of a replacement amp for the Harmon Kardon/ Premium Top HiFi audio systems. It is our Top priority.

Sorry we do not have a definite release date due to the uncertainty of development and production times during and after COVID-19.
Here is an update from Audiotec Fischer regarding DSP amp upgrade...
"I believe that the system in your Supra will be based on a MOST fiber optic system. We have an interface called the Helix SDMI25 that will convert the MOST signal into a TOSLINK signal that the aftermarket industry uses. From there the Match UP7BMW is a great fit for the vehicle power wise as the system is designed as an upgrade for the more standard BMW 676 HiFi audio systems. To connect them all together we offer a specialty Plug and Play harness that we created here in the US for the Harman Kardon audio packages and our UP7BMW amplifier DSP. With just a bit of installation time and some tuning you can have a great little system and a huge improvement in sound."
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Here is latest update I received from OEMAudio+ which doesn't sound as if they are going to have anything released soon...


Here is latest update regarding Bavsound's Revenant amplifier ...


Here is an update from Audiotec Fischer regarding DSP amp upgrade...
Based off that info. I feel your subwoofer port modification DIY and the Revenant amp will be the best P&P/economical setup.
 

89 and 95

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I have full BAVSound speaker set and am now going to do a JL DSP with professional tune. Will be another week or two to work it into shop's schedule.
 

tadda

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Been doing some research lately regarding direct replacement woofer options and not surprising I found quite a bit of info on the BMW sites...Our OE woofers in the Supra have the same woofer frame dimensions as those used in BMW underseat subs...

One item that caught my interest is where someone did a comparative study of 5 underseat woofer options available...I was able to contact the author and get the names of the 5 woofer brands in the blind performance test...

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showpost.php?p=26168476&postcount=338

Interesting to note is that the BMW OE "hifi" option (non-harmon kardon) sub had the highest sensitivity and widest bandwidth...However, it also has by far the lowest power rating of the group...

Now the worse performer of the group (from a subwoofer perspective) was the Bavsound Ghost sub where the bass response curve was not nearly as broad or flat as the others and peaked around 80hz...It's low end response also rolls off much sharper than the others...This may explain why many folks that install the Bavsound Ghost sub often comment that the while they sound "clearer' and "punchier" they also loose alot of low end bass compared to the OE sub ...That said, I think Bavsound Ghost sub would serve better use as a "mid-bass" option and would definitely need to be supported with installation of an external sub...

Seems as if many on the BMW site like the Earthquake SWS sub although I've seen some reviews regarding long term durability and quality issues...The Earthquakes reportedly also require more power to perform well...

Underseat Woofer Comparisons.jpg
 
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JasonO

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Been doing some research lately regarding direct replacement woofer options and not surprising I found quite a bit of info on the BMW sites...Our OE woofers in the Supra have the same woofer frame dimensions as those used in BMW underseat subs...

One item that caught my interest is where someone did a comparative study of 5 underseat woofer options available...I was able to contact the author and get the names of the 5 woofer brands in the blind performance test...

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showpost.php?p=26168476&postcount=338

Interesting to note is that the BMW OE "hifi" option (non-harmon kardon) sub had the best sensitivity and widest bandwidth...However, it also had the lowest power rating of the group...

Now the worse performer of the group (from a subwoofer perspective) was the Bavsound Ghost sub where the bass response curve is really not that flat and somewhat "peaky" at ~80hz...It's low end response also rolls off much sharper than the others...This may explain why many folks that install the Bavsound Ghost sub complain that the while they are "clearer' and "punchier" they also loose alot of low end response compared to the OE sub...That said, I think Bavsound Ghost sub would serve better use as a "mid-bass" option and would definitely need to be supported with installation of an external sub......

Seems as if many on the BMW site like the Earthquake SWS sub although I've seen some reviews regarding long term durability and quality issues...

Underseat Woofer Comparisons.jpg
The driver performance will be enclosure specific. You have ported your enclosure and enclosure dimensions could vary wildly between the two cars. This could be a terrible graph to follow blindly on anything other than sensitivity from my limited understanding.
 

tadda

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The driver performance will be enclosure specific. You have ported your enclosure and enclosure dimensions could vary wildly between the two cars. This could be a terrible graph to follow blindly on anything other than sensitivity from my limited understanding.
oh I agree that is another aspect to consider...I'm just using this as a point of reference and certainly wouldn't follow blindly without taking other variables into consideration...That said, while the BMW underseat sub dimensions differ from ours, they are ported as well...I did find it interesting and useful to see the comparisons between the 5 speaker types all using the same enclosures none-the-less...

I found the real take away here was with the Bavsound curve, which sort of supports what others have experienced and commented about after installing the Bavsound Ghost subs in the Supra having a noticeably reduced lower bass response but a punchier midbass...I am curious as to how they may sound with an unobstructed ported system as I've done with mine...

For others that may not know, the Supras OE sub enclosure is also ported to begin with...What I simply did was remove the obstruction in front of the OE ports by adding a port to the narrow rear panel to clear that path so to speak...And yes, it did somewhat change the "relative" enclosure volume...The result was lowering the bass response with less distortion...It also resolved the vibration and rattling issue...

I've actually been researching woofer upgrades because I eventually plan on replacing / upgrading the OE amp once a viable option is made available and I'm not that confident the OE HK woofers would be handle any additional power without distortion or damaging them..As it stands now, even with the subwoofer improvements made increasing volume past 50~60% begins to distort bass response...Some of this distortion may be amp related and some directly related to the OE woofer itself..
 
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JasonO

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oh I agree that is another aspect to consider...I'm just using this as a point of reference and certainly wouldn't follow blindly without taking other variables into consideration...That said, while the BMW underseat sub dimensions differ from ours, they are ported as well...I did find it interesting and useful to see the comparisons between the 5 speaker types all using the same enclosures none-the-less...

I found the real take away here was with the Bavsound curve, which sort of supports what others have experienced and commented about after installing the Bavsound Ghost subs in the Supra having a noticeably reduced lower bass response but a punchier midbass...I am curious as to how they may sound with an unobstructed ported system as I've done with mine...

For others that may not know, the Supras OE sub enclosure is also ported to begin with...What I simply did was remove the obstruction in front of the OE ports by adding a port to the narrow rear panel to clear that path so to speak...And yes, it did somewhat change the "relative" enclosure volume...The result was lowering the bass response with less distortion...It also resolved the vibration and rattling issue...

I've actually been researching woofer upgrades because I eventually plan on replacing / upgrading the OE amp once a viable option is made available and I'm not that confident the OE HK woofers would be handle any additional power without distortion or damaging them..As it stands now, even with the subwoofer improvements made increasing volume past 50~60% begins to distort bass response...
I was fairly certain you are aware. To get around bass drop off, you will need a new amp and or DSP. The bass quits increasing around 60-70% if I had to guess.
 

tadda

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I was fairly certain you are aware. To get around bass drop off, you will need a new amp and or DSP. The bass quits increasing around 60-70% if I had to guess.
I totally agree.... The bass gets muddy and distorted at those levels and I believe at this point it's a combination of needing better DSP Amp and more a robust woofer...
 

30MilesOffshore

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@tadda that was a good find, and is exactly why I was disappointed with the current setup on the Supra. I went directly from the BMW to Supra and the bass was like night and day. The OE BMW underseat subs out performed the A90 subs by leaps and bounds.

1) You mentioned "Interesting to note is that the BMW OE "hifi" option (non-harmon kardon) sub had the highest sensitivity and widest bandwidth." Do they have options for woofers? Non-HK vs HK?

2) The other thought was that the OE subs are 8-ohm. I wondered if the current A90 amp would be able to handle subs with a 4-ohm load? Did you come across that in any of your research?

3) How are the subs are currently wired? Series, Parallel, or Independent Channels?
 
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tadda

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@tadda that was a good find, and is exactly why I was disappointed with the current setup on the Supra. I went directly from the BMW to Supra and the bass was like night and day. The OE BMW underseat subs out performed the A90 subs by leaps and bounds.

I'm actually quite pleased with the performance of our OE HK subs but only after necessary modifications / changes were made to the enclosures along with some necessary EQ adjustments....

Here is the frequency response of my OE system with these changes made along with EQ adjustments...

EQ adjust with new mic 2a.jpg


1) You mentioned "Interesting to note is that the BMW OE "hifi" option (non-harmon kardon) sub had the highest sensitivity and widest bandwidth." Do they have options for woofers? Non-HK vs HK?

From what I've read and understand is that BMW offers a few audio upgrade options...The lower "HiFi" option has 2-ohm subs and the higher option "HK" audio package has 8 ohm subs...

2) The other thought was that the OE subs are 8-ohm. I wondered if the current A90 amp would be able to handle subs with a 4-ohm load? Did you come across that in any of your research?

I think 4 ohm would be a safe compromise, but I wouldn't go any lower impedance wise...

3) How are the subs are currently wired? Series, Parallel, or Independent Channels? Are you referring to the A90 or BMW?? The A90 has independent sub channels....
 
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dazza

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New to Supra and the forum, thanks to Tadda and the forum members. This is the most I have ever spent on a car and I was so disappointed that the Sound System rattled and vibrated when played at even low volumes.

I tackled the modifications but made some small changes that maybe helpful to other members who are tempted to do this.

I was very reluctant/nervous to cut into the panels, so I did something slightly different. I am a novice at this.

See pictures:

I removed the panel and the brackets behind the panel as well.

I placed sound deadening leaving holes for the screws in case I want to put the brackets back.

I put speaker wadding inside the metal enclosure but found it hard to place it like in Tadda's description against all four walls.

I also did not put any speaker grill like material behind the ports - I may go back and do this at a later stage.

I think if I was tempted to remove more panels I could have got to the woofer cover and lifted it and remove the woofers to place the speaker wadding, however I really did not want to start to pull the car apart, just for that purpose.

I had a piece of foam cut rectangular 50mm thick, 965mm long and 115mm wide. I cut two port holes 50mm using a wood circular hole saw.

Glued the ports in.

and shoved the foam in place it is snug.

I found the metal clips are noisy and creak, same as the speaker grills that secure with metal clips. So I noticed that they come apart from the mesh and simply covered the rim with velvet and secured the grill using screws and speaker clips (no drilling)

Now I can turn the volume full and there are no vibrations or rattles at all. the bass is very deep and low.

Everything can be returned to square one.

I used the remaining speaker wadding and shoved it into all the gaps under the carpeted speaker lid.

I plan on visiting a car audio shop to see if they have some nice 10inch speaker grills that will look better.

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dazza

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I wish to add some further input and consideration on this.

After doing the above mod it cured the vibrations and the bass was much deeper, however after playing the system on some heavy bass tracks I noticed that the woofers were popping, this to me is a sign of being overpowered too much woofer excursion. If it distorted than I would believe it to be the amplifier not having enough juice to power the subs.

I did a further mod of lifting the entire sub enclosure and placing more foam, sound deadening and felt strips over the metal clips and putting the original panel back, sealed without ports.

Now that there are no ports the bass is tighter and more controlled not as deep but still pretty good. I have no vibrations at all and they can play louder without popping on the same heavy tracks.

I am not sure the port idea is correct for this setup?

I am no expert on audio or sound but that's my final thoughts and conclusions.

I have a Golf R with a Dynaaudio sound system and this JBL is nearly as good as that system, now that I have no rattles and vibrations.

I admit you have to really turn the volume up high to get decent output but it cranks pretty loud and clean.

My equaliser is now flat response and it sounds very good this way.
 

tadda

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@dazza

I enjoy listening to EDM that has very deep bass tracks at a volume around 2/3 with subwoofer cover modifications made and I haven't experienced any popping issues or over excursion of woofers ...Below 2/3 volume the bass in my setup is deep and punchy with little distortion and no vibrations to speak of...

Here are my current audio settings:
  • ASD / Active Sound Design (off - using Bimmercode)
  • Surround (off)
  • Speed Volume (0)
  • Balance: (0)
  • Fade: (front +2)
  • Broad Bass (+2)
  • Broad Treble (-2)
  • Equalizer (shown below)
Equalizer settings after sound test.jpg


I saw what you had done originally and aside from some deviations you've made from what I had outlined here in How to Improve OE Subwoofer Quality and Eliminate Vibrations which most likely caused some additional vibrations and distortions (which I go through below), I also believe what you may be experiencing (as a few of us have discovered) is that the OE Amplifier itself starts distorting bass response at roughly 2/3 volume....At this point the Amp is unfortunately the weakest link which becomes even more apparent after eliminating all the other vibrations which allowed for the raising of volume even further...

That said, I'd like to clarify that even with the rear cover installed (without exhaust ports added) the OE woofer enclosures are still a ported setup...As I've mentioned a few times, placing a panel directly over these elongated ports (shown below) was a poor design decision by Toyota and the primary root cause of all the distortions and vibrations...

ported subs air flow.jpg


=======================================

Aside from this I did notice a few issues with the setup you chose to modify from what I had outlined and have added a few suggestions as to how to correct them which I hope you find helpful...

1) With the removal of the center bracket (shown below) that you decided to remove in your setup you also eliminated a key mount point of the center top cover which holds it down securely against the 8 subwoofer enclosure clips...

Subwoofer Top Cover Mounting Clip.jpg


Without this mounting point secured the top cover will vibrate particularly around the 8 mounting clips (#2) under the top cover that secure the woofer enclosures tightly against the top cover as shown in the shop drawing below....

Woofer Cover rear top mounts.jpg


2) You really didn't need to replace the OE grill covers to stop them from vibrating...The issue here again is not the mounting clips around the 12 spoked grill covers but moreso with the upper spoked cover vibrating against the lower grill plate...securing them together with drops of RTV (red dots shown below) eliminated any vibrations there...

woofer grill cover felt pads.jpg


3) Make sure that the speaker wadding you added to the enclosure interior sits flat against the walls and not wadded up into the space or you will create more distortions...If this is a problem to do then simply remove the wadding all together...

4) Have you disabled Active Sound Design (ASD) which injects a engine noise overlay signal onto the audio signal channels and creates quite a bit of distortion and muddies bass response....
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