Toyota "Preparing" Hotter Supra GRMN, Says Chief Engineer

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Because both BMW and Toyota planned the MKV Supra and Z4 production cycle that way. BMW no longer wants to produce a Z4 and Toyota and Tetsuya Tada don’t want this generation Supra to ever be a hybrid which is a company-wide mandate from MY2026 onward. So for the Supra at least production will end just before their whole lineup goes all-hybrid or offers at least one hybrid trim level for each and every model.

...which would mean to produce it longer than planned there would have to be substantial investment in a hybrid A90 right now... which Tada-san is not willing to do in order to keep the A90 series as a pure gasoline-turbo only performance model.

This makes a lot of sense. thanks for clarifying. Glad I got one now.
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https://www.autoblog.com/2020/07/11/toyota-supra-rumor-bmw-m3-engine/

Limited-edition Toyota Supra rumored to get BMW M3 engine in 2023

200-unit run would be a final hurrah before Supra dies in 2025

In car design, the term "power bulge" originally referred to a swollen area of the hood necessary to create clearance for an engine component or a larger, more powerful engine. Now the term could mean a mere cosmetic flourish to make a car look like it's harnessing potent go. The 2020 Toyota Supra features a slight cosmetic bulge. A whopper of a report in Japan's Best Car magazine (translated), via Motor1, says that come 2023, the Supra's hood could get the kind of power bulge its buyers would love. That year is apparently when BMW's M division will send Toyota 200 units of the 3.0-liter twin-turbo S58 engine for a special-edition Supra. What's even stranger than all this is that the way Best Car has written its report (via Google Translate, naturally): Information on the engine export program came from Supra chief engineer Tetsuya Tada himself.

The S58 is right now being spread throughout the compact M lineup, next to appear in the M3 and M4 after debuting on the X3 M and X4 M. If we go back exactly one year, last July Autocar spoke to M division boss Markus Flasch about the chance of an M3-powered Supra. Flasch emphasized the small chance of such an eventuality, calling the hypothetical "an interesting idea, if unlikely for now. It would be a lot for us to give away, you might say." Stressing the slim possibility, he added that his M team might not be happy about sharing its newest piece of work, before asking, "Why would we sell it before we had chance to use it ourselves in all the places we plan to?" Still, he didn't rule it out, tempering all of his previous doubts with, "But I'd never say never."

The M division has only once sold its engines to a third party, when the S70 V12 traveled from Munich to Woking, England, to serve in the McLaren F1.

By 2023, though, the S58 will have been installed in all the places M has planned — at least, in all the places we know of so far. According to the magazine, execs at M resisted, but Tada convinced the Germans to relent. It's also likely that by 2023, more powerful versions of the S58 will have appeared, so the Supra could get the 'regular old' inline-six. At the moment, that means output of either 473 horses and 442 pound-feet of torque, or 503 horsepower and 442 lb-ft when flicked into Competition guise. Either one would make a healthy upgrade over the 382 hp and 368 lb-ft in the current Supra, figures produced by BMW's B58 3.0-liter turbocharged straight-six that was the basis for the S58. The grunt gap won't be so large in three years, though, Tada telling Autoblog last year, "With a sports car, the promise is to offer more performance with each additional version. And we can expect additional versions pretty much every year."

Another odd bit in the Best Car piece is that Toyota will apparently hook the S58 to the seven-speed M-DCT transmission. The present M2 Competition uses that gearbox, being the last compact M in line to switch to the new regime. The new M cars moving to the S58, like the X3 M, X4 M, and coming M3 and M4, employ an eight-speed M Sport Steptronic torque-converter automatic as standard. If any of Best Car's information is true, it's possible that Toyota sticking with a hand-me-down gearbox helped Tada convince M to open up the storehouse. The coming M3 and M4 will include the option for a manual transmission in lesser-powered trims, but it's best to forget about a stickshift in a Supra, if only to forestall any disappointment.

The 200-unit production cap for a potentially 503-hp Supra might also have benefited the case — to stress, again, if any of this is true. A special edition dovetails with Best Car's trifecta of jaw-droppers, this being the penultimate line in the article: "The Supra GRMN, which will appear at least in 2023, will be the final edition of the current Supra." Tada told Australia's Motoring last year that he won't develop a hybrid Supra because of the compromises required, which would put the Supra outside of Toyota's global strategy to develop an electrified version of every model by 2025. An M-ified high-dollar Supra would ensure a bang instead of a whimper before the coupe goes out.

Best Car asked about a price of around 12 million yen, a little more than $112,000 U.S. That's not apples-to-apples for a market comparison, since Japan's 3.0-liter Supra starts at the U.S. equivalent of $69,399, and our entry-level Supra 3.0-liter begins at $50,990. If this unicorn Supra gets built and if it comes our way, though, a bulging premium should be expected, because with great power comes great MSRP.
 

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This 200-unit production run for the GRMN is still ridiculously low for a Supra even just for the Japanese market.

I do hope they sell at least as many additional cars for the U.S. market and the same for any other markets the Supra sells in with the B58D.

After all, STI just released a 209-unit run of S209 WRX STI’s for the U.S. and they have to have sold a number of additional ones in Japan at least.

On the other hand IF the GRMN comes to the U.S. at all then it leaves a convenient legally reproducible smog legal engine swap template for those who want to go to the trouble of taking any other 2023-2026 model year S58 engine and swap it into their Supra MKV.

Not that it wouldn’t have already been possible but having a version of the S58 built into a commercially available Supra makes it that much easier since many little parts will be available as bolt-in items to make it happen.
 

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This 200-unit production run for the GRMN is still ridiculously low for a Supra even just for the Japanese market.

I do hope they sell at least as many additional cars for the U.S. market and the same for any other markets the Supra sells in with the B58D.

After all, STI just released a 209-unit run of S209 WRX STI’s for the U.S. and they have to have sold a number of additional ones in Japan at least.

On the other hand IF the GRMN comes to the U.S. at all then it leaves a convenient legally reproducible smog legal engine swap template for those who want to go to the trouble of taking any other 2023-2026 model year S58 engine and swap it into their Supra MKV.

Not that it wouldn’t have already been possible but having a version of the S58 built into a commercially available Supra makes it that much easier since many little parts will be available as bolt-in items to make it happen.
I still see the problem being the electronics. Without that, it would be damn near impossible to replicate a factory S58.
 

KahnBB6

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I still see the problem being the electronics. Without that, it would be damn near impossible to replicate a factory S58.
You’re correct. And that means it will come down to how easy it will be to get equivalent BMW S58 electronics parts and/or flash the ECU that will come with the donor S58 to Supra GRMN S58 ECU’s programming (assuming someone can copy its code or replicate Its code).

We’ll see just how difficult it will be to achieve a foolproof S58 swap in a regular MKV Supra.
 

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GRMN cars have always been very limited. I think the biggest run so far has been the Yaris GRMN with 400 units IIRC. It's also been the only one sold outside Japan. Everything else has been 50-350 (first GRMN Mark X was 100, second Gen was 350)... What pops is that it also had a 6 speed manual whereas in the case of the standard Mark X no other manual was offered.

Anyway, this is why I've been hoping that Toyota makes a street GT4 option as an intermediary between the 3.0 and the GRMN. The GRMN will not be cheap, and it will be extremely limited, you can pretty much bet on that.
 

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https://www.motoring.com.au/toyota-supra-grnm-to-score-390kw-bmw-m3-power-125150/

Senior Toyota exec confirms GRNM to not only get BMW M donk, but its dual-clutch transmission too

Toyota has confirmed that its high-performance GRNM version of its fast Toyota Supra coupe will come equipped with a powertrain lifted from the next-gen BMW M4.

Until now, it was thought that engineers were going to turn up the boost on the regular car’s B58 twin-scroll turbocharged 3.0-litre inline six-cylinder but now Japan’s Best Car has revealed those plans have been scrapped.

Instead, the Supra GRNM will harness the power of BMW M division’s next-gen S58 twin-turbocharged 3.0-litre inline six that will produce up to 390kW and 608Nm of torque.

That is a huge power bump over the standard Supra, that even after its 2021 revisions, still only produces 285kW and 500Nm of torque.

To keep up with the new more frenetic S58 engine that will be used in both the next BMW M3 and M4 Toyota’s chief engineer, Tetsuya Tada who broke the news to Best car, said the Supra GRNM ditches the standard eight-speed automatic for M4’s seven-speed M-DCT dual-clutch transmission.

According to Tada, BMW was initially very reluctant to let go of its quick-shifting dual-clutch, especially since there are no plans to drop the BMW M4 powertrain into the closely-related Z4.

To cope with the big bump in power, Toyota GR engineers will completely retune the Supra chassis and, possibly, enter a Supra GRNM prototype in the Nurburgring N24 endurance race as part of its development.

The bad news is there will be a bit of a wait now until the Toyota Supra GRNM arrives in 2023. Worse still, when it lands on the performance car landscape, Best Japan says Toyota plans to make just 200 Supra GRNMs, with each priced around 12m yen ($A160,000.)
 

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https://www.motoring.com.au/toyota-supra-grnm-to-score-390kw-bmw-m3-power-125150/

Senior Toyota exec confirms GRNM to not only get BMW M donk, but its dual-clutch transmission too

Toyota has confirmed that its high-performance GRNM version of its fast Toyota Supra coupe will come equipped with a powertrain lifted from the next-gen BMW M4.

Until now, it was thought that engineers were going to turn up the boost on the regular car’s B58 twin-scroll turbocharged 3.0-litre inline six-cylinder but now Japan’s Best Car has revealed those plans have been scrapped.

Instead, the Supra GRNM will harness the power of BMW M division’s next-gen S58 twin-turbocharged 3.0-litre inline six that will produce up to 390kW and 608Nm of torque.

That is a huge power bump over the standard Supra, that even after its 2021 revisions, still only produces 285kW and 500Nm of torque.

To keep up with the new more frenetic S58 engine that will be used in both the next BMW M3 and M4 Toyota’s chief engineer, Tetsuya Tada who broke the news to Best car, said the Supra GRNM ditches the standard eight-speed automatic for M4’s seven-speed M-DCT dual-clutch transmission.

According to Tada, BMW was initially very reluctant to let go of its quick-shifting dual-clutch, especially since there are no plans to drop the BMW M4 powertrain into the closely-related Z4.

To cope with the big bump in power, Toyota GR engineers will completely retune the Supra chassis and, possibly, enter a Supra GRNM prototype in the Nurburgring N24 endurance race as part of its development.

The bad news is there will be a bit of a wait now until the Toyota Supra GRNM arrives in 2023. Worse still, when it lands on the performance car landscape, Best Japan says Toyota plans to make just 200 Supra GRNMs, with each priced around 12m yen ($A160,000.)
If Toyota actually managed to swipe the 7-speed DCT transmission from BMW it would be insane because BMW themselves are putting the ZF 8-speed in the new M3 and M4. This just hurts BMW if they happen to compare their M cars to the Supra GRMN because there is an inherent superiority of a dual-clutch compared to a typical torque converter automatic if you were to compare them on a racetrack.

I'm just a little apprehensive about all of this because the ZF 8-speed is the most reliable transmission in the entire automotive business. BMW's 7-speed dual-clutch however, has been reported to be a pretty janky unit and it's extremely jerky when driving around town. I'm cool with the S58 because that engine is simply developed off the B58 (read further enhanced and stronger) which itself is one of the strongest, most technologically advanced and reliable engine that ever exists today. I am NOT okay with the idea of using BMW's dual-clutch though.
 
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S58 (imo best I6 on the market right now), DCT, probably lower weight, more hardcore suspension, good aero, Supra looks? Now that just got on top of my list to buy 1day :eek: Shame it will be limited = almost unbuyable with sensible ammount of money :(

Now I am waiting for Supra GRMN vs 718 GT4 RS battle. Car that will be able (probably) to compete with top of the top RS 718? Not bad for rebadged BMW I guess ;)
 

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If Toyota actually managed to swipe the 7-speed DCT transmission from BMW it would be insane because BMW themselves are putting the ZF 8-speed in the new M3 and M4. This just hurts BMW if they happen to compare their M cars to the Supra GRMN because there is an inherent superiority of a dual-clutch compared to a typical torque converter automatic if you were to compare them on a racetrack.

I'm just a little apprehensive about all of this because the ZF 8-speed is the most reliable transmission in the entire automotive business. BMW's 7-speed dual-clutch however, has been reported to be a pretty janky unit and it's extremely jerky when driving around town. I'm cool with the S58 because that engine is simply developed off the B58 (read further enhanced and stronger) which itself is one of the strongest, most technologically advanced and reliable engine that ever exists today. I am NOT okay with the idea of using BMW's dual-clutch though.
I have an m4 with the 7 speed dct and I’ve driven many variants of the zf 8 speed including the Supra — I’d much rather have the DCT. In the most aggressive DCT mode in stop and go traffic you could get some jerkiness if you’re not smooth with throttle application, that’s about it otherwise it’s perfectly smooth in less aggressive modes. I’m also not trying to judge a sports car by how smooth it is at low speeds lol.
 

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Sorry if i missed something ( i dont read japanese), did the Best Car article specifically state Tada was the exec confirming the S58 and DCT?

The motoring au article here seems to state that, https://www.motoring.com.au/toyota-supra-grnm-to-score-390kw-bmw-m3-power-125150/
What’s more, according to Toyota’s chief engineer Tetsuya Tada, who broke the news to Best Car, the GRMN will ditch the standard Supra’s eight-speed automatic transmission for a seven-speed M-DCT dual-clutch auto. According to Tada, BMW was initially very reluctant to let go of its quick-shifting dual-clutch gearbox, which is understandable given the M3/M4 is expected to be offered with an eight-speed torque converter auto and there are no plans to drop the BMW M4 powertrain into the closely-related Z4.

I find it hard to believe Tada would explicitly reveal this at early point in the game. Are people just taking this vague info and running with it as confirmaiton? Really seems to be just stirring up the rumor pot.

I would be happy to be proved wrong though.
 

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Sorry if i missed something ( i dont read japanese), did the Best Car article specifically state Tada was the exec confirming the S58 and DCT?

The motoring au article here seems to state that, https://www.motoring.com.au/toyota-supra-grnm-to-score-390kw-bmw-m3-power-125150/
What’s more, according to Toyota’s chief engineer Tetsuya Tada, who broke the news to Best Car, the GRMN will ditch the standard Supra’s eight-speed automatic transmission for a seven-speed M-DCT dual-clutch auto. According to Tada, BMW was initially very reluctant to let go of its quick-shifting dual-clutch gearbox, which is understandable given the M3/M4 is expected to be offered with an eight-speed torque converter auto and there are no plans to drop the BMW M4 powertrain into the closely-related Z4.

I find it hard to believe Tada would explicitly reveal this at early point in the game. Are people just taking this vague info and running with it as confirmaiton? Really seems to be just stirring up the rumor pot.

I would be happy to be proved wrong though.
I am apprehensive as well. I don’t see why he would leak this info when 200 cars is hardly enough to be excited about since they will be so hard to be able to buy. Also it would show who wears the pants here since 200 units seems like a “f*ck you, quit asking” amount.
 

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I am apprehensive as well. I don’t see why he would leak this info when 200 cars is hardly enough to be excited about since they will be so hard to be able to buy. Also it would show who wears the pants here since 200 units seems like a “f*ck you, quit asking” amount.
Not to mention 200 units seems very 'stay up all night and order fast'
 

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I think having a 500HP 2025 A90 GRMN with 200 units produced is cool... but only if the 2025 A90 3.0 itself has about 450-475HP by then. Anything other than that and some are going to be left out.
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