👣 Official: Toyota Announces Manual Transmission Supra!

Dannyvandelft said:

Mercedes is an old fart brand. People shopping for coupes tend to be younger and if they want German, gravitate more towards Audi and BMW. I know I would. Older people mostly like 4 doors and SUV's.

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That doesn’t change my point though, overlap is a bad thing.

It actually goes into another question of mine in how Toyota plans on retaining Supra enthusiasts long term. Traditionally a halo car brings exposure to a company with hopes of selling them a more affordable or practical model and retaining the customer long term. If Toyota/Supra/Japanese car enthusiasts like the Supra’s engine and find it not be as unreliable as people make German cars out to be, what is stopping them from buying a BMW for their next car? Instead of an IS or RX they will think to shop for a 3 series or X3 since they want something a little more exciting without much of a trade off in reliability as evident by the Supra’s reliability.

justbake said:

That doesn’t change my point though, overlap is a bad thing.

It actually goes into another question of mine in how Toyota plans on retaining Supra enthusiasts long term. Traditionally a halo car brings exposure to a company with hopes of selling them a more affordable or practical model and retaining the customer long term. If Toyota/Supra/Japanese car enthusiasts like the Supra’s engine and find it not be as unreliable as people make German cars out to be, what is stopping them from buying a BMW for their next car? Instead of an IS or RX they will think to shop for a 3 series or X3 since they want something a little more exciting without much of a trade off in reliability as evident by the Supra’s reliability.

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Somehow it’s like you’re suggesting that because a very low production BMW-Toyota Supra is going to sway a majority of buyers away from the Toyota brand as a whole when NOT cross-shopping a Supra MKV.

That’s not going to apply to most people who want a less hardcore And more mainstream Toyota/Lexus *because* its a Toyota/Lexus.

By the same logic you pose, Corolla and other small Toyota SUV sales should fall in favor of Crosstreks and non-turbo Imprezas simply because Toyota sells the Subaru-Toyota GT86. But that isn’t really the case.

Besides, while the current Lexus IS is just an OK update the next generation of that model might be the compelling enthusiast argument you’re looking for as compared to the current BMW 3-Series.

As far as the RX and X3 are concerned, there’s certainly a lucrative business model for those and other manufacturer competitors to them but personally I can’t be bothered to care about any of them as I find them to be among the most detestable, ugly and undesirable vehicles anyone could ever want to buy. I’ll let people who actually like and/or tolerate CUV crossovers as they fare in the market judge how well one manufacturer’s middling CUV-blob does against another manufacturer’s nearly identical CUV-blob. Yes SUVs/CUVs/crossovers are big business— no argument to that reality. Their comparisons are just are not very interesting or very relevant discussion material IMO when the main topic is the marketing, options and variants that the MKV Supra will get (including a manual gearbox as is the title of this thread). And on top of that we compare the MKV to what other manufacturer models are available which currently offer manual gearbox variants.

The BMW-Toyota engine, transmission and chassis platform crossover will only last for this one A90 generation anyway. Once we get into an in-house A100 Supra it will be back to one manufacturer’s engineering prowess vs another’s again.

But by then probably few to no manufacturers will even be able to offer manual transmissions in their high performance enthusiast models. It bears remembering that the scale of developing an in-line six for only one Toyota model, upcoming emission standards in a few years, increasingly restrictive exhaust sound regulations and the long time it would have taken Toyota to develop their own version of this car and driveline BY the year 2019 is why this car’s engineering is tied up with BMW’s to begin with.

Because of this car gets to exist now as an I-6 gas-turbo non-hybrid hopefully with a manual transmission option while work on an A100 with newer technology and a different style driveline is R&D’d for the future replacement.

Most people are still going to consider a Lexus IS350 as the car that can do 500,000 miles with the least painful and least troublesome upkeep versus a BMW 2 or 3 Series. Performance value between the two is a different matter.

At least as far as this thread topic is concerned, the MKV existing at all and its potential driveline and manual variants are the most important things. Toyota will never win over all buyers and especially not with a car as low volume as this one is which should just about match the ballpark of MKIV USDM production numbers by the time production ceases.

KahnBB6 said:

Somehow it’s like you’re suggesting that because a very low production BMW-Toyota Supra is going to sway a majority of buyers away from the Toyota brand as a whole when NOT cross-shopping a Supra MKV.

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I'm not

justbake said:

I'm not

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My apology to you then. I misunderstood your meaning regarding just how far cross-shopping between the two brands might be taken on the basis of the MKV having such a heavy reliance on BMW hardware.

*Currently* I do see a strong reason to consider an M2 Competition 6MT over a Supra, which itself is a $70k or so car before markups. If/when the Supra MKV gets a manual transmission for even $4k-$5k more than the M2C-6MT (which was a question posed by either Tada in a public interview without the price and by Ichitaka here with the price) then I see the playing field being more level between the two cars. Then the only big differentiators will be no rear seat with the MKV (a legitimate consideration for some but certainly not all) and whether or not the more focused chassis of the MKV or the more traditional compact 2+2 w/trunk coupe-GT chassis of the M2 are preferable.

Those differences really come down to personal preference and needs. The MKV, I feel is a car that requires you to have another more practical car to also use when you need it even if that other car is a 2+2 coupe with a trunk. However the M2C being that already can be used more easily as an all-rounder vehicle in more daily situations not directly relating to high performance.

But I am fine with the MKV being a very focused 2-seater with only a hatchback storage area. If you buy one you must accept that everything is secondary to its high performance and passionate car enthusiast missions other than its out the door cost.

With a GRMN on the way, whatever its final specs will be, my primary criticism is the projected *extremely* low volume of example (only 200 cars? Come on...). With the 6MT on the way, so long as this covers the B58D and as far more normal production volume, that levels the advantages any other high performance RWD manual car has other than price and the shape of the chassis/body.

KahnBB6 said:

My apology to you then. I misunderstood your meaning regarding just how far cross-shopping between the two brands might be taken on the basis of the MKV having such a heavy reliance on BMW hardware.

*Currently* I do see a strong reason to consider an M2 Competition 6MT over a Supra, which itself is a $70k or so car before markups. If/when the Supra MKV gets a manual transmission for even $4k-$5k more than the M2C-6MT (which was a question posed by either Tada in a public interview without the price and by Ichitaka here with the price) then I see the playing field being more level between the two cars. Then the only big differentiators will be no rear seat with the MKV (a legitimate consideration for some but certainly not all) and whether or not the more focused chassis of the MKV or the more traditional compact 2+2 w/trunk coupe-GT chassis of the M2 are preferable.

Those differences really come down to personal preference and needs. The MKV, I feel is a car that requires you to have another more practical car to also use when you need it even if that other car is a 2+2 coupe with a trunk. However the M2C being that already can be used more easily as an all-rounder vehicle in more daily situations not directly relating to high performance.

But I am fine with the MKV being a very focused 2-seater with only a hatchback storage area. If you buy one you must accept that everything is secondary to its high performance and passionate car enthusiast missions other than its out the door cost.

With a GRMN on the way, whatever its final specs will be, my primary criticism is the projected *extremely* low volume of example (only 200 cars? Come on...). With the 6MT on the way, so long as this covers the B58D and as far more normal production volume, that levels the advantages any other high performance RWD manual car has other than price and the shape of the chassis/body.

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The M2 was $55k in 2018, and the M2C is $60k with virtually no markups. Next gen will be a little more but still rather close to A90 pricing, potentially even cheaper than the GRMN.

Rear seats are a big differentiator, but not enough to be the only differentiators

Yeah 200 is stupid low, it would be almost impossible to get one without crazy markups.

Those "200" were mentioned in a Japanese magazine, so those 200 would likely be for Japan. We would see more, probably a 1000 or 1500. Same goes for the price. That's the price for the Japanese market. Not the U.S. market.

Dannyvandelft said:

Mercedes is an old fart brand. People shopping for coupes tend to be younger and if they want German, gravitate more towards Audi and BMW. I know I would. Older people mostly like 4 doors and SUV's.

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Mercedes is definitely NOT an old fart brand. Their 63(s) AMG's are a rolling party on four wheels. Even the 53's and 43's are fun. The 45's and 35's are monsters too but I don't care for 4-cylinders as much.

F1 Silver Arrows said:

Mercedes is definitely NOT an old fart brand. Their 63(s) AMG's are a rolling party on four wheels. Even the 53's and 43's are fun. The 45's and 35's are monsters too but I don't care for 4-cylinders as much.

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That's a very small part of Mercedes. Most are old fart E class 4 doors driven in the middle lane 15mph below the speed limit
Mercedes is a rich man's Buick lol.

Dannyvandelft said:

That's a very small part of Mercedes. Most are old fart E class 4 doors driven in the middle lane 15mph below the speed limit
Mercedes is a rich man's Buick lol.

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I disagree. They're really comfortable vehicles yet their new global chassis platform has shown to be pretty capable.

F1 Silver Arrows said:

I disagree. They're really comfortable vehicles yet their new global chassis platform has shown to be pretty capable.

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And it's primarily bought by...... old farts.

Dannyvandelft said:

And it's primarily bought by...... old farts.

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Hahahahahhah

Dannyvandelft said:

And it's primarily bought by...... old farts.

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What a lame argument... BMW's and Audi's are bought by old people too you know... Maybe it's just me but I've never associated Mercedes with old farts. I've always associated old farts with Buick.

justbake said:

I don't know why you treat every disagreement like a personal attack. I am just asking a question.

No I want a Toyota that doesn't cost more than an equivalent BMW.

I know the BestCarJP rumors should be taken with a grain of salt and most likely are not true, but let's travel down that road for a second. If a GRMN Supra is $112k before markups (which well exceeds "Toyota money"), why would I buy it over a similarly equipped M2 which will probably be in the $65k-$70k range?

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For starters, the GRMN will be farrrr lighter than the M2

Bryster said:

For starters, the GRMN will be farrrr lighter than the M2

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How much is the GRMN supposed to weigh? The GT4 weighs 2950 with practically zero safety features so I don’t see it coming anywhere close to that

Can we stay on topic ever on these forums?