2020 Supra Transmission Chat - Manual, Dual Clutch, or Auto?

[Spilner]

Please, Toyota....

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[A70TTR]

I do have to agree with not including DCT being an issue, at least for me as a potential buyer. I know why they did it though; DCTs are crazy expensive in relation to manuals or traditional TC automatics.

I'd personally rather they have bumped the price a bit and included it though. Hoping the GRMN ends up getting a better trans.

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EDIT: have been watching some videos of the ZF8 upshifting and downshifting under throttle, and I have to be honest it's faster than I thought

 

[mas921]

And Guff nailed it.

My final information for you all:

Spoke with a junior engineer and they confirmed the manual was left out due to projected take rate in the US being 20%, with the US also projected to be just over half of all global sales.

That alone did not doom the manual though, apparently US safety mandates along with Toyota compliance in things like collision protection, lane guidance, etc is what did it.

It was going to cost $500m to develop and implement a system capable of moving past these issues and as such they decided to not bother. Apparently going forward, Toyota will no longer build any new manual vehicles which is more or less already done. It is also directly related to why the 86 has no planned updates at this time; not the only reason though.

There is no actual consideration for a manual at this time.

Thanks for sharing this.

The wait is over for me then; Not interested anymore in the New Supra.

 

[Modal170]

Thanks for sharing this.

The wait is over for me then; Not interested anymore in the New Supra.

At least it was something outside of toyota's control.

Though, start cherishing the manual because it is about to go away. Really going Analog to digital now

 

[zigzagz94]

Please, Toyota....

Thank you.

That's exactly what I was referring to. I think this may be the closest thing we're going to see to a "traditional manual" in the near future based on New safety regs. (as long as it's mated to a DCT and not a torque converter)

 

[A70TTR]

'simulated manual'

 

[decryphe]

'simulated manual'

But where's the skill and finesse in using it? Then I might just as well buy the flappy paddle DCT (which I won't).

 

[Guff]

Thank you.

That's exactly what I was referring to. I think this may be the closest thing we're going to see to a "traditional manual" in the near future based on New safety regs. (as long as it's mated to a DCT and not a torque converter)

What would be the advantage to pairing a "psuedo-manual" like this to a DCT vs a TC Auto though? The time it takes you to move that lever is still slower than a shift on either a DCT or a good Torque Converter.

In the end, that thing is just a pointless gimmick. It doesn't seem like it would provide any sensory advantage over just a "sequential" style auto gear lever with a +/- gate like the Bimmers have, and doesn't let you even take advantage of the speed of an auto trans. If anything it would just be worst of both worlds lol.

I think our best-case scenario is that we get to work mapping the CAN system of the ECU from the get-go and just get to a point where we can reliably spoof the auto trans sensor data. Then grab an angle grinder, a CNC to make a bell housing adapter, and a T56 (as well as a blank check), and get to work making it a manual

 

[A70TTR]

so, at this point there are exactly 4 years to make all cars compatible with AEB. Toyota made TSS standard in 2016 and apparently make AEB standard at the end of 2017.

I'd say nearly all auto makers will have automatic only lineups by 2020 (at the latest) unless they spend a ton of money to figure out how to allow the car to take over the manual trans, clutch, etc and not stall the engine when implementing AEB. Right now there are already other cars in the US that have had AEB (did not know this), but they are auto only obviously, and there is a general feeling of apprehension industry wide in regards to lawsuits when it comes to not having this system absolutely perfected before street use.

Why Toyota is so ahead of other automakers on this (check out BMW compliance for possible answers on the Z4):

https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannm...s-cars-why-not-other-automakers/#2dd19efe3ecc

As you might expect, luxury nameplates (Tesla, Mercedes-Benz and Volvo) reported the highest compliance rate; most technology, including safety features, is first introduced in luxury cars. But as smaller players, their impact on overall industry safety is modest.

Toyota is the one skewing the curve when it comes to measuring industry progress. The Japanese automaker equipped 1.4 million vehicles -- or 56 percent of its 2017 model year fleet -- with standard AEB, the most by far of any carmaker. General Motors has the second-highest number of 2017 models with standard AEB — 551,777 of 2.8 million vehicles, or 20 percent of its 2017 fleet. Honda is third-highest with 492,330 of 1.6 million vehicles, representing 30 percent of its 2017 fleet.

Toyota includes AEB in a bundle of active safety features called Toyota Safety Sense that is included for no extra charge on many of its vehicles. Most other manufacturers offer these systems as optional features that are bundled into expensive trim packages, often with other features consumers don't want, or can't afford.

Toyota's head start may well stem from improvements in safety practices it made in the wake of a recall crisis involving unintended acceleration that engulfed the automaker in 2009 and 2010. The company stepped up its commitment to safety in 2011, creating a new Toyota Safety Research Center in Michigan, and vowing to share its work with other carmakers. In 2014, the company admitted misleading consumers and regulators about the issue, reaching a $1.2 billion settlement with the U.S. Justice Department and agreeing to oversight by a federal monitor. In October, a federal judge dismissed a criminal charge against Toyota after it completed its punishment.


Even some carmakers that haven't made AEB standard are moving in the right direction: five automakers report that more than 30 percent of vehicles they produced in 2017 were equipped with AEB. They are: Audi (73%), BMW (58%), Subaru (47%), Volkswagen (36%) and Maserati/Alfa Romeo (30%).

 

[Spilner]

so, at this point there are exactly 4 years to make all cars compatible with AEB. Toyota made TSS standard in 2016 and apparently make AEB standard at the end of 2017.

I'd say nearly all auto makers will have automatic only lineups by 2020 (at the latest) unless they spend a ton of money to figure out how to allow the car to take over the manual trans, clutch, etc and not stall the engine when implementing AEB. Right now there are already other cars in the US that have had AEB (did not know this), but they are auto only obviously, and there is a general feeling of apprehension industry wide in regards to lawsuits when it comes to not having this system absolutely perfected before street use.

Why Toyota is so ahead of other automakers on this (check out BMW compliance for possible answers on the Z4):

https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannm...s-cars-why-not-other-automakers/#2dd19efe3ecc

Shall we start a GoFundMe for the manual?

 

[A70TTR]

 

[Lexusisf]

A70, thanks for providing this info, I for one was not aware of any of this, explains alot. In some ways I guess you could say it is just bad timing for the car to come with a manual...I beleive I read earlier Toyota is very focused on safety as a priority, and one of the first to implement such features, ahead of many other brands according to the link...so if they as company were slower out of the gate with this stuff, maybe a manual would be happening...

 

[Spilner]

Thank you.

That's exactly what I was referring to. I think this may be the closest thing we're going to see to a "traditional manual" in the near future based on New safety regs. (as long as it's mated to a DCT and not a torque converter)

I'm not good with auto, I NEED A STICK!!

 

[Spilner]

When Toyota's got money for a Ranch in Texas, BUT NOT FOR A MANUAL!!

 

[zigzagz94]

What would be the advantage to pairing a "psuedo-manual" like this to a DCT vs a TC Auto though? The time it takes you to move that lever is still slower than a shift on either a DCT or a good Torque Converter.

In the end, that thing is just a pointless gimmick. It doesn't seem like it would provide any sensory advantage over just a "sequential" style auto gear lever with a +/- gate like the Bimmers have, and doesn't let you even take advantage of the speed of an auto trans. If anything it would just be worst of both worlds lol.

I think our best-case scenario is that we get to work mapping the CAN system of the ECU from the get-go and just get to a point where we can reliably spoof the auto trans sensor data. Then grab an angle grinder, a CNC to make a bell housing adapter, and a T56 (as well as a blank check), and get to work making it a manual

I agree with everything you just said. I wasn't advocating for or against it just remarking that maybe that is why Toyota showed the technology. Unfortunately I think that will be the industries attempt at trying to placate the manual buyers and still implement their safety tech.

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