All-new 2023 Nissan Z makes world debut!

autopc25

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That's because most of C&D's readers are a bunch of geriatric old fucks who've just learned to be edgy and they have absolutely ZERO knowledge in cars. I swear to god most of those guys are dumber than Tesla fanboys and hop on bandwagons harder than anyone else.

I, as someone who LOVES the GR Supra and is not a big Nissan fan at all, I am quite proud of Nissan for taking the fight to Toyota. Hats off to them.

With that being said, they already have a platform to build off of and unlike what some bandwagoners believe, this actually solidifies Toyota's reason to collaborate with BMW. People may be a bunch of fucking dumbasses on the internet like most of the 136 year old readers of C&D, but the reality is that the lack of an available platform was one of the biggest reasons why the collaboration with BMW made sense at this time. There are so many factors to consider that I would have to write a book to explain it all. Some people just won't understand.

The accountants at Toyota might as well have gotten a cactus up their ass after seeing the sheer amount of people that bought the 86, GR Supra, and GR Yaris. Toyota did the smart thing by playing it safe (though it was at the behest of the bean counters). After they've commanded people's attention and people understood why Toyota was doing this and supported their cause, there is now an actual business case to shell out some more money to fully develop the car on their own. But the fact remains, this was the only way to fire back up. Now, A70 has said that Toyota is truly willing to develop an A100 GR Supra on their own, and the 86 is being delayed by the year after the executive order from Toyoda-san. But you won't impress everyone, particularly reactionists like the guys at SupraForums or the old fucks that read C&D.

At the end of the day, Toyota and BMW targeted Porsche, and Nissan is targeting Toyota. All is well. Capitalism breeds competition and competition is what ensures we get even better products (and soon, an A100 GR Supra). I'm all for it. Bring it on Nissan!
I am glad BMW and Toyota got together. Neither the Z4 or A90 would probably be here today if they didn't. We are very lucky to have the Supra.

It does not sound like there will be a A100. There was a Japanese article interviewing the Supra's head engineer. He pretty much said the A90 is the end of the Supra. He said there are no plans for another Supra after 2025. The A90 GRMN will be the last evolution of the Supra. Toyota is planning on closing out the ICE A90 Supra with a limited production GRMN in 2023. Ending production in 2025 of both the GRMN and the normal grade Supra.

This video does a decent job talking about the GR Supra design and why there were limitations during the design phase. It's a good video. Interesting explanation about "hard points" that limit design starts around the 9:30 mark.

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Captain_Kirk

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Thanks for that. Are they scaled to size?
I didn't think about that, but the two are basically the same size.

Z Proto
Length 172.5 inches
Width 72.8 inches
Height 51.6 inches
Wheelbase ??? (370z @ 100.4 inches)

Supra
Length 172.5 in.
Width 73.0 in.
Height 50.9 in.
Wheelbase 97.2 in.
 

autopc25

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As a consumer it's great to have competition and choices.

It's not just the 2.0 and 3.0 Supra. A $34-$35K Z is going to present a headache for other rear wheel sports cars. That seems like the magic price point. Who wouldn't be considering a base Z if they were in the market for a loaded up BRZ or 86. It probably will not that be that much more of a stretch money wise? Then there is the Mustang and Camaro. And whatever else is out there. I mean a loaded Miata Club is almost $40K now. A Miata RF GT is $36K.
 
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Sigg

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Toyota should release an OTA tune to increase power on 21+ models with the newer engine. If 400hp is true thats just too good of a value. Please Toyota!!! Give stock tune more! Or unlock 21 ECU!!!
 

Dannyvandelft

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Toyota should release an OTA tune to increase power on 21+ models with the newer engine. If 400hp is true thats just too good of a value. Please Toyota!!! Give stock tune more! Or unlock 21 ECU!!!
21's already put out over 400. 388 wheel on 93 octane as dyno'd, X 1.08 (8 percent drivetrain loss) is roughly 419 horsepower.
The more important number is torque. The Q60 Red Sport with the same engine is a second slower to 60 than the 3.0 Supra so the lighter Z will probably be a little closer with the 9 speed auto, but the manual will be much slower.
 

Guff

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3252 Dry means about 3450-3500 wet, which seems pretty accurate for the FM platform. Curious to see how much the Automatic trans adds to that. I'd say a fully spec'd out Auto Z at 45-50k, with 400hp and a ~3500lbs should be pretty on par with a 3.0 Supra in terms of specs.

Nissan will likely be looking to just undercut the 3.0 Supra, by about 2-3k when optioned similarly. And then have the super basic base model be the bargain that should be able to at least capture headlines. Good marketing strategy, I think.
 

Dannyvandelft

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3252 Dry means about 3450-3500 wet, which seems pretty accurate for the FM platform. Curious to see how much the Automatic trans adds to that. I'd say a fully spec'd out Auto Z at 45-50k, with 400hp and a ~3500lbs should be pretty on par with a 3.0 Supra in terms of specs.

Nissan will likely be looking to just undercut the 3.0 Supra, by about 2-3k when optioned similarly. And then have the super basic base model be the bargain that should be able to at least capture headlines. Good marketing strategy, I think.
The 370 platform was already inferior on the 370 itself. On paper it all looks good, but in the real world it's just not gonna hang with a 3.0 Supra. Unless they extensively improved the platform itself, I don't see it happening.
 

autopc25

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Toyota should release an OTA tune to increase power on 21+ models with the newer engine. If 400hp is true thats just too good of a value. Please Toyota!!! Give stock tune more! Or unlock 21 ECU!!!
It's always welcoming to have more power but I think the Supra is fine the way it is for it's current chassis tune. There is always the possibility of a few more HP in future model years. I would not be surprised in the least if Toyota/BMW had a small power bump in the future to keep up with the competition. 2022 Supra announcements are still pending so there is probably a very small possibility for a HP bump.

Personally I am not as interested in horsepower between the Supra and the Z. It's the overall chassis balance, driving dynamics, steering feel and braking I would be interested in. It will be interesting how the 370 chassis has evolved for the Z. The 2021 Supra's chassis tuning, steering, braking is much better than the 370Z I owned back in the day. The new Z would have to have a LOT better chassis tuning and brakes than the 370Z. The brakes were pitiful. Then there is the transmission. I think the Supra's ZF automatic transmission is the gold standard for torque converter transmissions. The A90 auto transmission is phenomenal, nearly as good as my 911's PDK. Actually better for daily driving.
 
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CSUfiend

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Based on dyno’s, the a90 3.0 easily makes 400+ crank horsepower. I think it’s important to note that when making a comparison with the (reported) 400hp in the new Z. But for advertising purposes, those that look on the surface level will see “382 vs 400”, which isn’t necessarily the entire story here.
 

Dannyvandelft

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I don't even think the Supra sales should be worried. The Z just won't be in that class, based on the previous 2 gens. The fit and finish won't be there, and the performance most likely will fall short too.

The sales that should be worried, are those of the 86/BRZ. If the Z really starts at $35k (which is still doubtful imo) then it's not that big of a leap from a loaded BRZ with 228 horsepower to a base Z with around 400. So I think we're looking at the wrong end of the spectrum.
 

supraboi

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The sales that should be worried, are those of the 86/BRZ. If the Z really starts at $35k (which is still doubtful imo)
Why do you say that? A $5k increase sounds reasonable to me. It's just a 370z with a bodykit after all.
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