A91 & Recent 2021 Impossible to Tune / ECU manufactured after 2020/6 is locked? [WARNING: NO POLITICS]

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i don't know if anyone is really working on it lol. What, do you have some programmer in the back just constantly crunching code to get this fixed? I don't think so. Time must be spent taking care of customers, installing parts, and tuning cars that can actually be done. If it's been this long, the reward may not be worth the work... at least for Supras (in terms of pure numbers). I do understand this Bosch issue isn't just affecting our cars, but still...
What you mean by not worth it not only are tunners loosing out on 1000+ 2021 Supra’s wanting to be tune and not being able to but also parts company are loosing out too so I’m pretty sure they are working on it and pretty soon it will be unlocked
 

ijrebuck

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What you mean by not worth it not only are tunners loosing out on 1000+ 2021 Supra’s wanting to be tune and not being able to but also parts company are loosing out too so I’m pretty sure they are working on it and pretty soon it will be unlocked
Well I hope you're right. I don't know if the actual demand is 1,000+ or not though. That's too hard of a figure to gauge. I would like to know who exactly is working on this though and what kind of plan and hours are going into it.
 

KurtP

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we should convince APR to get into the market. They’ll have it cracked and programmed in a couple weeks.

or contract it out to them to hook up their super computer to it to crack it and decode it.
 
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we should convince APR to get into the market. They’ll have it cracked and programmed in a couple weeks.

or contract it out to them to hook up their super computer to it to crack it and decode it.
Agree 100% I still don’t understand how it’s been quite a few months and no one as cracked it yet
 

ijrebuck

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yea. I understand these things take time. I just haven't seen anyone stand up and say they are prioritizing it (probably for the reasons i mentioned 2 posts ago). I also should partially blame myself because I tend to take "working on it" with a grain of salt as that means absolutely nothing in my field... add to that, I'm being impatient
 

KurtP

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Agree 100% I still don’t understand how it’s been quite a few months and no one as cracked it yet
bosch ecu’s have historically been some of the hardest ones to crack in their generational period. There just a lot of encryption, a lot of partitioning, and a lot of depth to the ecu’s, and it continues to get worse. The oem’s dont want people in there messing with it, unfortunately.

when we start getting into ecu’s this complex, it takes some pretty serious gear to get that all cracked and decoded. The majority of tuning shops just dont have the gear or the technical expertise to do it. There are only a couple places that do, and they want to control market share to profit from their investment in personnel, talent, and gear.

if these places cant be convinced it is in their interest to crack the box, it is going to be a long wait.

imo, the right solution is to either to contract out to one of these places to crack the boxes and decode the tables; or develop a real inline unit. Not a piggy back that just connects to sensors, but one that runs inline at the ecu cables. develop at ecu that allows pass through of the data you want untouched, and modifies the input/output signals of the ones you want altered.

id also be curious to see if this new ecu is cross platform with anything else. If it is, thats good. If it isnt, itll be a long wait. The majority of people dont modify their cars. So it would be a niche market within a niche market.....
 

ijrebuck

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id also be curious to see if this new ecu is cross platform with anything else. If it is, thats good. If it isnt, itll be a long wait. The majority of people dont modify their cars. So it would be a niche market within a niche market.....
You summed up my original fears very well with your entire post regarding the increasing difficulty of cracking ECUs and the personnel and equipment it takes to achieve this.

I'm very worried that it isn't cross platform (worst case)... that's the point where I meant it may not be worth it when considering supra sales of cars that are affected and the % of those that would actually want to tune their cars.
 

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You summed up my original fears very well with your entire post regarding the increasing difficulty of cracking ECUs and the personnel and equipment it takes to achieve this.

I'm very worried that it isn't cross platform (worst case)... that's the point where I meant it may not be worth it when considering supra sales of cars that are affected and the % of those that would actually want to tune their cars.
with as complex as they continue to be, and the cost of the gear to do it, i think the best approach is solving the parallel ecu option. The factory ecu runs the car, the parallel ecu runs the motor the way you want with your personalized tune while telling the factory ecu everything is good. Amd we as consumers understand that tuning your car is now $1500 because thats the option.
 
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bosch ecu’s have historically been some of the hardest ones to crack in their generational period. There just a lot of encryption, a lot of partitioning, and a lot of depth to the ecu’s, and it continues to get worse. The oem’s dont want people in there messing with it, unfortunately.

when we start getting into ecu’s this complex, it takes some pretty serious gear to get that all cracked and decoded. The majority of tuning shops just dont have the gear or the technical expertise to do it. There are only a couple places that do, and they want to control market share to profit from their investment in personnel, talent, and gear.

if these places cant be convinced it is in their interest to crack the box, it is going to be a long wait.

imo, the right solution is to either to contract out to one of these places to crack the boxes and decode the tables; or develop a real inline unit. Not a piggy back that just connects to sensors, but one that runs inline at the ecu cables. develop at ecu that allows pass through of the data you want untouched, and modifies the input/output signals of the ones you want altered.

id also be curious to see if this new ecu is cross platform with anything else. If it is, thats good. If it isnt, itll be a long wait. The majority of people dont modify their cars. So it would be a niche market within a niche market.....
I agree with you 100% honestly haste the fact that they put these ecu on the 21 supras this car is suppose to be a tuners car then they come with this of locking the Ecu which takes away the whole meaning of a tuners car
 

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I agree with you 100% honestly haste the fact that they put these ecu on the 21 supras this car is suppose to be a tuners car then they come with this of locking the Ecu which takes away the whole meaning of a tuners car
IIRC this effects all Bosch ECUs, built after start June 2020 not just the Supra ECU
 

KurtP

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I agree with you 100% honestly haste the fact that they put these ecu on the 21 supras this car is suppose to be a tuners car then they come with this of locking the Ecu which takes away the whole meaning of a tuners car
you arent wrong, but we did it to ourselves partially, and Toyota -who Im sure pays a gold coin for these motors- doesnt want to warranty the after effects of “bro tunes”

the number of bad tuners out there exceeds the good ones by a huge margin. HUGE. who your tuner is has become somewhat of a tribal affair, and making 5 more hp on a dyno pull for the forum, set to music on a smooth edit youtube vid by a flat brim hat bro can steer massive sales volume to your shop.

one problem is we lack informed consumers. Too many people dont understand some of the fundamentals of tuning to make good choices, so the afore mentioned smooth edit vid showing “big power” and “big boost” drives sales.

informed consumers shouldnt ask “bruh! How much boost can i run??” To a tuner.

-how did you tune for knock? Did you actually wear knock ears? Or did you just look at the knock sensor?

-what did you do with knock sensor sensitivity?

-what thermal load protections did you leave in place and what did you modify?

-what did you do with cam timing and cam advance?

-at what IAT do you start pulling ignition timing? how much washing down of the cylinders are you doing to control heat?

-what do you do with false knock recovery protocols?

-what do you do to monitor cylinder pressure and cylinder temperature? What safety protocols did you modify and how did you modify them?

etc etc

i did programming/tuning for a while, and still stay loosly connected to it although i dont write files anymore. The things i have seen in maps are often times nothing short of disgusting.

knock sensors straight up turned off, or desensitized so severely they arent serving a purpose. Most tuners dont even own knock ears anymore and an even fewer number actually know how to use them......thermal compensation for a timing curve turned off. timing curves that would be too aggressive for race fuel put into pump gas tunes im the hopes that knock correction of the ecu will just “sort it all out”. Tuners making too much of their power from overboosting and too much timing Because they dont know how to phase the camshafts correctly. The list goes on And on and on. This damages engines and supporting components.

if you ever see a dyno where up top you can clearly see the curve start to fall off, then suddenly flatten as it starts to round, you need to look at that map carefully. its usually the result of overspinning the turbo to make as much tq and peak hp to sell the tune, and then advancing the fuck out of ignition timing so it doesnt LOOK like its falling off. These maps are usually going to run hot temps and your likelyhood for knock at high load is there. When you see dyno graphs on smoothing 5 that look like saw blades, youll frequently get the excuse “oh it was just the dyno’s pick up. Totally normal.” Sometimes thats true. But you need to look at the map. That also comes from tuning the knock sensors so aggressively that its going to knock pull/recovery at a very quick cyclical rate, leading to lack of a smooth curve. Your air fuel curve should be so straight it was drawn with a ruler. theres a lot more, but ill stop there.

the point is, when you get into the maps of some of these tuners, youll realize the number of them actually doing it right is really, really small. and if a tuner ever tries to sell you with “i make more power than anyone else” be prepared to run. And as annoying as it is to have the ecu locked, if i was a OEM i’d sure as shit try to keep people from tuning a car i was on the warranty hook for after the bullshit ive seen out there.

im not familiar with the companies in this forum; but just based on historical experience id guess 1 out of 5 are actually doing tuning right.
 

KurtP

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IIRC this effects all Bosch ECUs, built after start June 2020 not just the Supra ECU
this is likely. Im just not sure if toyota added layers of encryption or not.

if its all bosch ecu’s, thats good. Economy of scale is our friend
 

Kiwi Greg

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