A91 & Recent 2021 Impossible to Tune / ECU manufactured after 2020/6 is locked?

DejaVu

Well-Known Member
First Name
Jeff
Joined
May 15, 2021
Messages
49
Reaction score
59
Location
ATL
Car(s)
2021 3.0
This. I didn’t doubt that they did it but the more I think about it the more I’m on the fence. If I had an advantage like this I’d do everything to get it out and get that leg up. It’s also kinda funny that they’re so picky about people stealing and cracking their IP when they are in the business of reverse engineering and cracking other people’s IP’s lol.

I just think it’s a thing in demand and yeah make your money, but don’t hold it hostage when you could be helping the community and your own brand by having people know you were the innovators. But everyone runs their own business differently. I’d help the community.
Based on what they said the whole problem is that they have not yet figured out a way to encrypt the traffic being transmitted for their hack. This means the first person who gets it can just watch what is being transmitted and will know how the hack is done themselves.

Once the way to hack it is out people will undercut their prices and they wouldn't get paid for their work. It's the Apple/old Microsoft business model. "We took the time to figure this all out for you and you can have it once we guarantee we get ours."

Personally, I'm not a fan but as a mobile app developer I understand it. If it were me I'd opensource the hack so everyone could have it and then make my money supporting tunes while being known as the leader in the industry. Sure you'll loose money to those who aren't willing to pay, but you'll make more charging a premium to those who want it done right.
 

Akashugly

Well-Known Member
First Name
Akash
Joined
Nov 17, 2020
Messages
70
Reaction score
60
Location
Dubai
Car(s)
2021 Toyota Supra
If they were running a business they would be licensing out their "trade secret" and getting royalties from every single unlock out there. Instead, they are just sitting on a pretend unlock and waiting for some one else to unlock so then they can use their big bad trade secret to also unlock some ECUs and lose their advantage in the market.

Businesses that usually come into an advantage like this rush to market to corner it and make as much money as possible before competitors swoop in and if someone steal their IP, they sue the piss out of them.
Thank you!! Read it Mission!!!
 

Snowman

Active Member
First Name
Beau
Joined
Aug 26, 2020
Messages
34
Reaction score
38
Location
Colorado
Car(s)
2021 A91 Supra Refraction Blue, and 2017 STI
Anyone know if MP is offering to unlock the ECU in person? It sounds like they are trying to protect the method (IP), and I would presume if they do the unlock at their facility then there is no risk of someone stealing their secrets. Maybe I'm wrong?
 

Genesisxdoes

Member
First Name
Justin
Joined
Jun 15, 2021
Messages
8
Reaction score
7
Location
Inland Empire
Car(s)
2021 GR Supra 2.0
Anyone know if MP is offering to unlock the ECU in person? It sounds like they are trying to protect the method (IP), and I would presume if they do the unlock at their facility then there is no risk of someone stealing their secrets. Maybe I'm wrong?
The post said no one would be getting it until they could encrypt their method for the hack I believe. I’m not sure how tuning from that technical standpoint but I’m assuming even if it is unlocked in person, I could potentially take it to another tuner and give them the goods on how to unlock it I believe? I’m not sure. I can always call and ask. MP is down the street from me.
 

Travelingsoldier

Active Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2019
Messages
41
Reaction score
55
Location
Korea
Car(s)
2001 2.5RS, 2003 WRX, 2005 STI, 2012 WRX, 2017 Hobie Tandem Island
The post said no one would be getting it until they could encrypt their method for the hack I believe. I’m not sure how tuning from that technical standpoint but I’m assuming even if it is unlocked in person, I could potentially take it to another tuner and give them the goods on how to unlock it I believe? I’m not sure. I can always call and ask. MP is down the street from me.
Please ask. 😂
 

underdonk

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2021
Messages
299
Reaction score
245
Location
USA
Car(s)
'21 Supra 3.0 Premium
Potentially great question. I am curious about their actual motivations on this as well. I don't think that either confirms or denies that it's possible or that they did it. I guess internet points/reputation or something along those lines if it's real. If it's not real -- I don't understand why they'd even bother with any of it.
Just a quick note - encryption is difficult to do right, especially if their motivation is to protect against a company who will attempt to pick apart their work and break it (e.g., encryption to protect your kid sister's journal vs. encryption to protect against a determined adversary). These guys aren't software engineers it appears (as you are). It seems like their motivation is to get a proof-of-concept done then bolt on the encryption later. You know that's not the "right" way to do it. I know that's not the "right" way to do it. But unfortunately that's how a lot of software development is done, as you know, especially by people who are doing it as a necessity rather than a profession.
 

Nope

Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2020
Messages
22
Reaction score
33
Location
oregon
Car(s)
2021 3.0 Supra
Just a quick note - encryption is difficult to do right, especially if their motivation is to protect against a company who will attempt to pick apart their work and break it (e.g., encryption to protect your kid sister's journal vs. encryption to protect against a determined adversary). These guys aren't software engineers it appears (as you are). It seems like their motivation is to get a proof-of-concept done then bolt on the encryption later. You know that's not the "right" way to do it. I know that's not the "right" way to do it. But unfortunately that's how a lot of software development is done, as you know, especially by people who are doing it as a necessity rather than a profession.
>Breaks ECU encryption
>Can't encrypt process
*SEEMS LEGIT*
 

zrk

Well-Known Member
First Name
Zack
Joined
Apr 20, 2021
Messages
1,063
Reaction score
1,390
Location
Chicago, IL
Car(s)
2021 Supra - Nocturnal Black
>Breaks ECU encryption
>Can't encrypt process
*SEEMS LEGIT*
They didn't break encryption, lol. Most likely they found a flaw in the implementation of the encryption. These are very very very very different things. If they broke AES encryption nothing would be secure anymore - including TLS and SSL.

Encrypting traffic, while still being able to exploit the flaw in the implementation could very likely be hard, depending on how the exploit is acted on.
 

max

Banned
Banned
Joined
Dec 2, 2020
Messages
287
Reaction score
233
Location
KY
Car(s)
Stinger (no more......)
They didn't break encryption, lol. Most likely they found a flaw in the implementation of the encryption. These are very very very very different things. If they broke AES encryption nothing would be secure anymore - including TLS and SSL.
PREACH!!!!!! LOL
 

underdonk

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2021
Messages
299
Reaction score
245
Location
USA
Car(s)
'21 Supra 3.0 Premium
They didn't break encryption, lol. Most likely they found a flaw in the implementation of the encryption. These are very very very very different things. If they broke AES encryption nothing would be secure anymore - including TLS and SSL.

Encrypting traffic, while still being able to exploit the flaw in the implementation could very likely be hard, depending on how the exploit is acted on.
In addition, I noticed they talked about there being a "security chip" on in the ECU this iteration. Most commonly this is where the encryption keys are stored (this is speculation). So when you're trying to "jailbreak" something like this, you're no longer looking to snag the keys in plaintext from memory (how most implementations are broken), because they are protected by a special hardware subsystem. Sounds like Bosch really did a good job with the current product they're producing, but like I've said before in this thread, it just takes time. No system is perfect and someone will always find a way to break it, because humans are fallible, and ultimately, we're the ones writing the code and designing the hardware. The ECU is just doing what we tell it to do.
 

Mimosa

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2020
Messages
250
Reaction score
501
Location
North Carolina
Website
www.instagram.com
Car(s)
A91 Supra, GV70 3.5TT
Systems with TPMs (trusted platform modules) are really difficult to break. There are some TPMs the have failsafes that activate as soon as they are tampered with. Usually this results in losing all the data and or stored keys.

We utilize HSMs (Hardware Security Modules) for our solutions that are a bit more robust in their capabilities and modular. TPMs are usually built into the board. Either way, you usually have to have the manufacturer for the devices to open up the case that they are stored in. Usually the have additional security where tampering with the enclosure will wipe everything.

I don't know anything about automotive ECUs or Bosch's encryption methods. But I'm guessing that they probably have some sort of proprietary TPM in there.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: zrk

swift.mk5

Well-Known Member
First Name
Carlos
Joined
Apr 9, 2021
Messages
50
Reaction score
69
Location
Irvine, CA
Car(s)
'21 3.0 Supra Premium, '02 Civic, '03 350z
They didn't break encryption, lol. Most likely they found a flaw in the implementation of the encryption. These are very very very very different things. If they broke AES encryption nothing would be secure anymore - including TLS and SSL.

Encrypting traffic, while still being able to exploit the flaw in the implementation could very likely be hard, depending on how the exploit is acted on.
Makes me wish more Silicon Valley type dudes were into cars, they'd find the vulnerabilities so quick once they're made aware they exist.
 
  • Like
Reactions: max

Nico

New Member
First Name
Nico
Joined
Jun 4, 2021
Messages
3
Reaction score
2
Location
Arizona
Car(s)
2021 Supra
So I found a shop that has successfully unlocked and tuned 06/06/2020 cars. I'll be heading there this month with everything. I'll keep everyone posted.
And pray tell, what is this mysterious shop and where?
 
 
Top