Battery.

John8

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Battery charging, condition at time of purchase and warranty has been discussed a few times here. I have posted that I got my Nitro, and was told that the battery had been replaced, because after I drove it, they tried to start it (days later and needing to move it) and it wouldn't start. After I purchased the Supra, I asked for confirmation that it had the new battery. They then said it had been charged, and that no battery had been replaced. A head person in service and a sales person had told me it had been replaced.

So I have an app now, for about 5 days, Bimmerlink, that shows the charge state of the battery. It has been down to 64% after driving, which concerned me because I have been driving it and not sitting with the battery on but with the engine off. Then I took a long drive, 3.5 hours and it stood at 80%, why not at 100%? I then got a charger and left it on slow charge until the charger showed "Full", at capacity. That capacity is 89%, not 100%. Bimmerlink shows the battery as a 105Ah battery, which it is (it is marked on the battery and with BMW, on the battery).

I work with a number of different types of batteries and this indicates to me, that the battery will not take a full charge and due to being run down to or near zero, at the dealership, has been damaged.

Does anyone have current state of charge on their battery using an app, that show what normal charge state it is in? Thanks for any info.
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JasonO

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My short interpretation as someone involved heavily in lead acid storage as a career. Your battery is likely fine. It has had some factors that will shorten itā€™s life based on what you have said, but without real testing (expensive), it could be several months or a year or more lost. The monitoring software cannot truly say. Also, since conditions have improved for the battery (it now gets charged), degradation will slow down.

With that said, if they told me they replaced the battery as a condition of sale and admitted later that they did not, Iā€™d make a scene and contact Toyota NA even if they replaced the battery at that point.

The long boring part as to the why monitoring systems suck at high resolution data:

SoC on lead acid batteries is not exact with the data available to Bimmerlink. I think it could be terribly off which is why the system flags are set conservatively and this data has to be pulled with diagnostic tools. It needs interpretation and understanding of limitations.

The BMW monitoring system pulls data from the negative terminal of the battery. It is getting post temp, voltage, and current. It is monitoring these over time and calculating snapshots based off this data through a set of formulas.

For lead acid product, cell voltage at rest or under stable float currents without power draw can be a reliable indicator of the state of charge. SoC and capacity are not the same. You could have shit capacity left, but high voltage as your battery is now capable of delivery all of that shit capacity. The flip side is you could have high capacity and low voltage, so you can only deliver part of the capacity. State of charge is relative to actual, not rated capacity.

The issues with this system are: you are measuring multiple cells (6) at once, so low cell voltages can be masked by high cell voltages, float voltage is not stable, power draw over the battery reduces accuracy, and voltage does not equal capacity. While there is a lot of data, it is not all good data.

Unless the internal flags get set for a bad battery, whatever SoC is shown will not be enough for warranty replacement. Batteries SoC varies during service, actual (not rated) capacity, temps, time of charge, and age.

Just some info below on what a real capacity test does:

To properly provide actual capacity of a battery per IEEE 1188, (VRLA product) the battery is taken offline and must undergo a controlled discharge using the battery specifications to the batteryā€™s end voltage. There are bunch of other requirements as well, but that is the gist of a valid test to comply with minimum maintenance and regulatory standards. Once the test is complete, you have the capacity of the battery that is valid for warranty and maintenance purposes. The battery is then recharged and put back online.
 
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John8

John8

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My short interpretation as someone involved heavily in lead acid storage as a career. Your battery is likely fine. It has had some factors that will shorten itā€™s life based on what you have said, but without real testing (expensive), it could be several months or a year or more lost. The monitoring software cannot truly say. Also, since conditions have improved for the battery (it now gets charged), degradation will slow down.

With that said, if they told me they replaced the battery as a condition of sale and admitted later that they did not, Iā€™d make a scene and contact Toyota NA even if they replaced the battery at that point.

The long boring part as to the why monitoring systems suck at high resolution data:

SoC on lead acid batteries is not exact with the data available to Bimmerlink. I think it could be terribly off which is why the system flags are set conservatively and this data has to be pulled with diagnostic tools. It needs interpretation and understanding of limitations.

The BMW monitoring system pulls data from the negative terminal of the battery. It is getting post temp, voltage, and current. It is monitoring these over time and calculating snapshots based off this data through a set of formulas.

For lead acid product, cell voltage at rest or under stable float currents without power draw can be a reliable indicator of the state of charge. SoC and capacity are not the same. You could have shit capacity left, but high voltage as your battery is now capable of delivery all of that shit capacity. The flip side is you could have high capacity and low voltage, so you can only deliver part of the capacity. State of charge is relative to actual, not rated capacity.

The issues with this system are: you are measuring multiple cells (6) at once, so low cell voltages can be masked by high cell voltages, float voltage is not stable, power draw over the battery reduces accuracy, and voltage does not equal capacity. While there is a lot of data, it is not all good data.

Unless the internal flags get set for a bad battery, whatever SoC is shown will not be enough for warranty replacement. Batteries SoC varies during service, actual (not rated) capacity, temps, time of charge, and age.

Just some info below on what a real capacity test does:

To properly provide actual capacity of a battery per IEEE 1188, (VRLA product) the battery is taken offline and must undergo a controlled discharge using the battery specifications to the batteryā€™s end voltage. There are bunch of other requirements as well, but that is the gist of a valid test to comply with minimum maintenance and regulatory standards. Once the test is complete, you have the capacity of the battery that is valid for warranty and maintenance purposes. The battery is then recharged and put back online.
Thank you for your insight. Yes, would need to do a full charge and then measure the discharge across a known value, monitor that and then see what the actual amperage capacity is. With some batteries, doing a full discharge, can recalibrate them but that is with some LiPoly and Li ion and I don't want to do it with this. I can get up to 90% now using an external charger, but only to 81% using the car.
 

scottymax

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I work as an ASM at a Toyota dealership and this was a big problem when we first got the Supras in. What happens is if the vehicle is shut off and not locked the radio and dash lights stay on, draining the battery. No one knew this at first because no other Toyota models do that. When I took delivery of my Supra, I was told that the battery was being replaced right then, because of this issue. I know this isn't going to help with the state of your battery currently, but thought I would share what we've experienced with why the batteries were being replaced.
 

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Thank you for your insight. Yes, would need to do a full charge and then measure the discharge across a known value, monitor that and then see what the actual amperage capacity is. With some batteries, doing a full discharge, can recalibrate them but that is with some LiPoly and Li ion and I don't want to do it with this. I can get up to 90% now using an external charger, but only to 81% using the car.
You cannot recalibrate a lead acid battery. Outside of some incredibly narrow circumstances, capacity is capacity.

If your concerned (I would be), I would speak to the manager of the dealership and explain your stance based on what you were told and what didnā€™t happen. Be polite but voice your frustration in that you were informed incorrectly and the repercussions of that miscommunication.

Deep discharges that happen over extended time periods are detrimental to batteries. The acid is absorbed by the lead on discharge and corrodes the structural members and causes dendrites to puncture the separators btw plates which lead to plate to plate shorts. All of that means less battery life.
 

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Just drive and enjoy your car man. Instead worrying about clear coat, battery, and engine temperature. Your going to worry yourself to death. This is a brand new car. Not some project beater. lol
 
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John8

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Just drive and enjoy your car man. Instead worrying about clear coat, battery, and engine temperature. Your going to worry yourself to death. This is a brand new car. Not some project beater. lol
I enjoy it a lot but I also like to be informed, and nothing wrong with that. I don't like to be told that the battery was replaced and after a drive, check it and it is back to 80% and knowing the cost is around 500 dollars and this could be an early replacement. Clear coat, I was curious and like to know, something wrong with that? And engine temp, now I know and so do some others.

I enjoy the hell out of the car but I will state again, I like to know what is going on and what to expect. It was my hard earned money I bought this outright on, not someone else's.
 
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John8

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You cannot recalibrate a lead acid battery. Outside of some incredibly narrow circumstances, capacity is capacity.

If your concerned (I would be), I would speak to the manager of the dealership and explain your stance based on what you were told and what didnā€™t happen. Be polite but voice your frustration in that you were informed incorrectly and the repercussions of that miscommunication.

Deep discharges that happen over extended time periods are detrimental to batteries. The acid is absorbed by the lead on discharge and corrodes the structural members and causes dendrites to puncture the separators btw plates which lead to plate to plate shorts. All of that means less battery life.
Yes, I meant the li poly and li ion. Right, I am going to speak with them. Had it at 90%, the max it would charge to, drove it and checked it when I came home and it had dropped to 85%, and normally settles to 80% without being charged, so something isn't right.
 

JasonO

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Yes, I meant the li poly and li ion. Right, I am going to speak with them. Had it at 90%, the max it would charge to, drove it and checked it when I came home and it had dropped to 85%, and normally settles to 80% without being charged, so something isn't right.
Again, the tool you are using is not meant to be used how you are using it. Iā€™m not saying it is wrong, but there are many reasons it may not be right.

I agree that you should pursue a new battery only because they told you they replaced it. The readings you are showing play no part in that.
 

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Just drive and enjoy your car man. Instead worrying about clear coat, battery, and engine temperature. Your going to worry yourself to death. This is a brand new car. Not some project beater. lol
Agreed if you're going to look for problems you're going to find problems. If no engine lights are going on then temp is fine it's performing within its parameters. If the car still starts battery is still good. If it died every other week than ya theres an issue.
 
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John8

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Agreed if you're going to look for problems you're going to find problems. If no engine lights are going on then temp is fine it's performing within its parameters. If the car still starts battery is still good. If it died every other week than ya theres an issue.
Not looking for problems, asking questions. What the hell is wrong with that? Oh, most people haven't done their own car repairs and work, I have. I have rebuilt engines, trans etc. But to each his own. I made sure I knew what was going on with my 2012 FJ Cruiser and have enjoyed it a lot from 122 degrees to -55 in Alaska, but I also made sure I knew my car and what I needed to do to keep it running without issues, and you know what, I have. :^)
 
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John8

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Taking my Surpa in. It has been down to 64% and I have been using a trickle charger to get it up to a good state, but when I drive, it won't hold and goes back down. So if people have a question about their battery, they need to get it checked out. This is on Toyota, for not knowing to lock the Supra on the floor and allowing it to totally deplete the battery.
 

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You are interpreting things wrong. If you can convince Toyota you are right, great. Your arguments would not work at BMW.

On registration, battery capacity is set to 80%, not 100%. This is why you BMW uses larger batteries than most manufacturers. It will not charge much over this, if at all, to slow degradation and also to reduce hydrogen venting risk. It also will not charge continuously in the sense that a dumb system will. It will allow discharge of the battery within certain thresholds.

Best of luck to you and I hope you get that new battery you are wanting. You likely will still see things that concern you though as the system doesnā€™t work how you want it to to work.
 
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John8

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You are interpreting things wrong. If you can convince Toyota you are right, great. Your arguments would not work at BMW.

On registration, battery capacity is set to 80%, not 100%. This is why you BMW uses larger batteries than most manufacturers. It will not charge much over this, if at all, to slow degradation and also to reduce hydrogen venting risk. It also will not charge continuously in the sense that a dumb system will. It will allow discharge of the battery within certain thresholds.

Best of luck to you and I hope you get that new battery you are wanting. You likely will still see things that concern you though as the system doesnā€™t work how you want it to to work.
They charged it to 90%. Also after a long drive it was at 64%, explain that.
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