Blown turbo at track - need help cooling it down

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The OP said his turbine failed, not the compressor. If it was heat issue on the compressor side, as people suggest to upgrade to aftermarket intake intercooler, how come that didn't fail?
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AHP

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You need to datalog the car and see what is going on. My speculation is your tune is too aggressive for the road course. Elevated IAT, coolant and oil temps; ECU pulling timing to reign things in so EGTs skyrocket while you continue to hammer down. Pretty much a recipe for turbine failure.

I run stock boost on the road course and haven't had any issues, limp mode, etc.. I run 20 min sessions and it's been 90°+.
 

garudathree

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thanks @geert.bieseman for the write up on the cooling system, very helpful, deserves its own thread. way better than random regurgitation of forum spiel without actual understanding of the topic.

using your analysis, I may block off my passenger side rad ducting to reduce drag during cooler events.
 
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nebulous13

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The route I would verify as well, is to see if the cooling of the turbo perhaps failed.
Thanks everyone for the info. The shop is convinced this was a defective turbine. They have it all hooked up with the new turbo and verified the coolant flows properly.

I'll setup an app to monitor temps and I'm going to dial the tune down to 80% for the next event. Once I know whether I'm keeping this car or switching to the manual, I'll invest in some better cooling. Thanks!
 

sams2k

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Thanks.

Last weekend, by removing the front bumper and all radiators, we figured everything out:
engine_empty.jpg



So I am going to list it up here, which may provide other people as well with useful information.


In our front bumper, we have '3 main hole section' when standing in front of the car.
  • Left
  • Center
  • Right

Below a picture of the bumper, when its detached, where you can clearly see these sections:
IMG-5391.jpg


When looking at it from the front of the car (sorry, picture is a little bit dark):
IMG-5390.jpg


The left and right main sections, are actually divided in lets say '3 sub-sections':
  • The outer section, is used for airflow towards the air-to-water radiator
  • The center section, is used for airflow towards the brake rotors
  • The inner section, is used for airflow towards the components that sit behind the main center section

You can see it clearly in this picture:
IMG-5407.jpg


When looking from it on the other side, you notice the small radiator and the part that lets the air flow to the brake rotor:
1DC9DB4F-C8BF-4DB9-9273-491C73481307.JPG



Now back to our main section again... in the main center section, we have 3 coolers present. The are in the following order when looking at them from the front:
  • First, we have the transmission cooler
  • Second, we have the heat exchanger
  • Third, we have our engine main radiator
  • And behind the engine main radiator, sits our engine fan

On the pictures below, you see in black... the CSF transmission cooler and behind it the CSF heat exchanger:
FCB3622A-8CAD-41BA-8E90-A1B2514ED3F8.JPG

front.jpg


When looking from the engine bay's top perspective (standard oem stuff), you notice the heat exchanger, the engine radiator and the engine cooling fan:
IMG-5400.jpg



Ok, so now that we know how our front bumper is dividing the airflow towards the several (sub)-sections, we can list up what each component is doing


Starting with the main center section, we have the following:
  • The transmission cooler, is off course cooling our automatic transmission
  • The main engine radiator, is there cool the water which flows through our engine (keeping the engine itself cool)
  • The heat exchanger has actually two purposes:
    • Its main purpose is to cool the water coming from our intake manifold (it has the integrated chargeair-to-water cooled intercooler)
    • Its side purpose is to also keep the water cool, used in our AC (AirConditioning) unit. Yes that's right, the heat exchanger also makes sure... that we have cold air in our car :)

On our right section (when standing in front of the car), we have the following:
  • The small radiator, which cools the water towards our turbo

And finally on the left section (when standing in front of the car), we have the following:
  • The small radiator, which serves as the auxiliary engine radiator. Yes it assists the main engine raditor, to cool the water which flows through our engine

Just be to clear, the main engine radiator and both small radiators, are making use of the same water circuit. On the picture of the engine bay, you see:
  • on the left... that the small radiator connects directly in the main engine radiators circuit
  • on the right... the hose going towards the radiator on the right
  • in the center we have a T-section. This is because both of them are using the same circuit. But the left hose of the T-section, is going to an electric water pump (for our turbo). The right goes to the small radiator on the right. The top connects to the main circuit.
engine_empty_2.jpg


The reason why I refer to it as the electric pump for the turbo, is because the water will flow mostly from the radiator on the driver side (least resistance path).


We have two water circuits on our Supra (so we also have two expansions)
  • The small circuit is used for the water of the heat exchanger
  • The big circuit is used for the water for all the other radiators

On the picture below, the top one is the filler for the smaller circuit, the bottom one is the filler for the big circuit:
water circuits.png


As extra information:
  • The big filler has a sensor inside, to check for 'low coolant level'. To prevent that the engine would not cool in case of low coolant
  • The small filler does not have a sensor. The ECU just relies on the IAT temperatures and adjust timings (when you have low coolant in that circuit, there will be no alert triggered on the screen in your car)


To keep the water flowing, we have 3 water pumps on our Supra:
  • A mechanical one, which flows the water for cooling the engine
  • An electric water pump, which flows the water for our turbo (right side radiator when standing in front of the car)
  • An electric water pump, which flows the water for our intake manifold (heat exchanger). Also referred to as the EWP CharegeAir in the logs

For reference, the ChargeAir Electric WaterPump looks like this (I upgraded mine for a higher flowing one, for testing purposes):
pump1.jpg

pump2.jpg


Hope it clarifies a little bit our entire cooling system on the Supra, as it did for me :)


i have the supra for 4 monthes and i have been looking for an explnation like this for so longggggg !!!!
thank you very much :thumbsup:
i like to know everything about the car i have and especially on engine and cooling, that information is super important and can't be found nowhere.
i think you should post it in a special post so it can be found in the search.
again, huge thank you.
 

geert.bieseman

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thanks @geert.bieseman for the write up on the cooling system, very helpful, deserves its own thread. way better than random regurgitation of forum spiel without actual understanding of the topic.

using your analysis, I may block off my passenger side rad ducting to reduce drag during cooler events.
Let me know how well it works
if you notice on colder days when you have problems maintaining the engine temperature (read: temperatures too cold), that it helps to heat up the engine by blocking that passenger side radiator.
 

geert.bieseman

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The OP said his turbine failed, not the compressor. If it was heat issue on the compressor side, as people suggest to upgrade to aftermarket intake intercooler, how come that didn't fail?
Just for information for the community:
  • The turbine is the HOT side of your turbo (the one where your exhaust gasses spin the turbine wheel)
  • The compressor is the COLD side of your turbo (the one where your intake air gets compressed, which afterwards is referred to as charge air)

So in a normal functioning turbo, the compressor side never gets hot.


But if your turbine side or compressor side failed, it can be due to the HOT side of the turbo, running to hot, or transferring its heat to the compressor side:
  • On the compressor side, this can for example be due to not properly cooling down your car/engine after a session, in case your cooling system works fine
    • Keep in mind that normally, you perform a few cooldown laps on the track.

A link of Garret explaining why turbo's are water cooled:


So one of the things indeed to check (and apparently it has been verified by the shop), is the flowant of the coolant.


So why did his turbo fail... maybe not enough cooldown laps or shutting down the car to soon after the session. I mean, at this point it is guessing :)
 

geert.bieseman

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OH thanks! ton of great info

Let us know if the higher flowing pump has any gains?
You're welcome.

Don't know if it would have better gains. Will be hard to measure, as we never took log data with the cooling upgrades... when the standard chargeair waterpump was present.

It was actually to test, if we can change in the ECUTEK... how fast the pump would be flowing under whcih conditions (it should be present in a certain map... but I currently have no clue if we can manipulate the under which conditions the pump flows at which capacity).


At a certain point in the upcoming weeks, I going to update my built thread (been to long since I last posted there, with all the covid and stuff going on, delaying everything).
 

i3igpete

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late to the party here, what is the hotside wheel material? i know in mitsubishi evo crowd, it's highly recommended to downgrade from the titanium aluminide turbines to inconel if you plan to heavily track your car.
 

FLtrackdays

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As you know by now through the explanation, both the intercooler and heat exchanger, work in tandem. You can't exclude one from another... they work together.

So fitting a big ass intake manifold, will result in a bigger surface to cool the charge air. However if the heat exchanger is not up to the task to also cool down the coolant water of that intercooler... over time, the system will start heat soaking.

The same applies to the heat exchanger. You can fit as huge heat eschanger to keep the temperature of the coolant water of the intercooler as low as possible, if the intercooler does not have to surface volume to dispeat that heat of the charge air... over time the system will start heat soaking.

Again, both are required. Which one do you require to upgrade first... it will depend on what you do with the car and under which conditions. In my personal opinion, I would first upgrade the heat exchanger, when you daily your car or take it for a 'spiritual driving'.
Love your whole explanation and your summary above! @geert.bieseman
 

zrk

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Again, both are required.
I definitely don't agree with this statement as blanketly as you do. There are different applications, and some definitely do not require a bigger heat exchanger to keep the manifold cool.
 

FLtrackdays

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I definitely don't agree with this statement as blanketly as you do. There are different applications, and some definitely do not require a bigger heat exchanger to keep the manifold cool.
LOL. Thanks to you, Geert, and all the Supra track rats, I'm seriously doubting I'll be needing either for my little weekend track events. I'll soon find out.... But these in depth explanations are incredibly helpful (and fun as shit) for me learning more about my new favorite car 😜
 
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Thanks for this. I upgraded the inter cooler in the front and a tans cooler from CFs. But not side ones. Blew stock turbo at 12k. Toyota did not cover. They Sent to bmw. As they did not know how to work on it or even diagnose that it was the turbo. They changed turbo. $7K. Drove for approx 1000 miles. Took to track day. Blew turbo on First session. Intake side came apart. Pieces into intake tube/ engine. Bmw would not cover. Wanted 30k for new engine and no warranty. They are all crooks. . I did not have time to fight with them. I went and got car. I have done an engine swap myself from a crashed one with 14k. Almost exact miles that was on mine when 2nd turbo they replaced failed. I have upgraded the side radiators as well. I plan on taking the old engine apart to see what really failed. So will test the water pump to see if that failed first. New junk yard motor(lol) with a charge pipe, cold air intake, catless down pipe and aftermarket exhaust. (Stock tune no boost). Dynoed at 426 hp to rear wheels on 30% eth.
so I am interested in others who have had turbo failures.

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Rocksandblues

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Man, I am sorry Todday1. That is horrible experience.

The Supras I know and track with have not experienced any issues like this. And I have never heard of 2 turbos failing??

I cannot begin the guess at what the underlying issue is?
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