Why I'm NOT Hyped About The New Toyota Supra

[Craigy]

Well they are, after all, just rumors.
We ultimately have to wait and see unless there is some credible leak on a power plant.

Ultimately if you are willing to spend $84k - a 911 S isn't far off from that and a great back up plan.
I mean really, there are a ton of options at that price point.

+1 Exactly they are rumors, we have to wait and see.

As for choices at that price point, I'd have to disagree. $90k gets you a base stripper 911 which is a fairly underwhelming car. Carrera S is over $100k, and with any modicum of typical options ticked, easily $110, $120k, although you can get a decent discount on a non special 911. That's at least $25k more than $84k. And again this would be a car with much less performance (albeit a very nice car). A comparable 911 would be the GT3, which starts in $140s but is really $150k+, and no discounts or over sticker.

There's sort of a big gulf between the budget high performance cars (Corvette, ZL1, Shelby) and the next level up. In the $80-$90k range you're looking pretty much at Z06, good discount on a very old brand new GT-R, or said stripper base base 911. Otherwise, you're spending maybe $50-$70k, or well over $100k, more like $150k+, to the next level. At least that's how it feels.

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[johnny_10196]

Corvette has the Z06 for $80k. Ford has the GT350R for $65k. Toyota could absolutely do it, at least the core concepts like engine, transmission, etc.

LFA was not a real car for comparison purposes. It was a designer's wet dream , ultra limited production, custom carbon weave looms, designed and redesigned from scratch over a decade, etc. And after all that, it barely edged out the Nissan GTR which was introduced with a sticker price in the $60s and mid-year increased to $72k. And true cost of a Nissan GTR is not the $110k or whatever MSRP has been jacked up to, you can get new GTRs for $20k off all day long.

So price-wise it's completely doable. Original design parameters for CALTY was a car "in the $50,000 range" and they churned out a light car with dual clutch, active aero and ~500 horsepower. And then yeah the high horsepower Z for $50k further reinforces this, as well as existing cars like the base Corvette.

Yeah its doable for other automakers, but this is Toyota we are talking about.

Lets look at more recent examples. The 86, way down on power when compared to the Mustang. You're RC-F weights 393lbs more than the M4. The GS-F gets destroyed by a less expensive and more powerful M550i.

Sadly they just have a history of releasing more expensive cars that don't match the competition.

 

[Craigy]

Yeah its doable for other automakers, but this is Toyota we are talking about.

Lets look at more recent examples. The 86, way down on power when compared to the Mustang. You're RC-F weights 393lbs more than the M4. The GS-F gets destroyed by a less expensive and more powerful M550i.

Sadly they just have a history of releasing more expensive cars that don't match the competition.

Unfortunately you're right!!!

 

[HKz]

Yeah its doable for other automakers, but this is Toyota we are talking about.

Lets look at more recent examples. The 86, way down on power when compared to the Mustang. You're RC-F weights 393lbs more than the M4. The GS-F gets destroyed by a less expensive and more powerful M550i.

Sadly they just have a history of releasing more expensive cars that don't match the competition.

lol? you're being quite silly & unrealistic. quite wrong about the F cars and the 86...hell, what car under $35 K is lightweight & powerful? this is business, not charity..

 

[johnny_10196]

lol? you're being quite silly & unrealistic. quite wrong about the F cars and the 86...hell, what car under $35 K is lightweight & powerful? this is business, not charity..

That fact that no one is buying the GS-F and RC-F speaks for itself. The GS-F is way too expensive in my opinion. Dealers have to take $20k off the list price in order to move them. Even Lexus fanboys over at ClubLexus agree it should have been a mid $60k car.

I never said there was anything wrong with the 86. I think it is a well package car, heck I would take it over the Miata. But me and Craigy were just talking about power as well. And thats why I brought up the Mustang, a car that is probably quite offen cross shopped with the 86. You need view our conversation/topic as a whole and not just nitpick a few lines.

Super fugly, but the 370z

 

[vb22]

If I were in the market for a high performance luxury sedan I would probably take a CTS-V over a M5 and GS-F. I think its the best bang for your buck.

 

[HKz]

That fact that no one is buying the GS-F and RC-F speaks for itself. The GS-F is way too expensive in my opinion. Dealers have to take $20k off the list price in order to move them. Even Lexus fanboys over at ClubLexus agree it should have been a mid $60k car.

I never said there was anything wrong with the 86. I think it is a well package car, heck I would take it over the Miata. But me and Craigy were just talking about power as well. And thats why I brought up the Mustang, a car that is probably quite offen cross shopped with the 86. You need view our conversation/topic as a whole and not just nitpick a few lines.

Super fugly, but the 370z

oh please, sales figures almost have no correlation to a vehicle's ability..there are many examples we could bring up (ie nearly all of toyota's entire lineup, among the worst in many benchmarks but leads sales in many classes). Who is not having a hard time moving sedans and coupes off dealer lots? Have you seen BMW & Merc sales? hell, if I'm not mistaken, Toyota was the only automaker to post positive gains in July..and a random cohort of like-minded people who wish something was cheaper is hardly proof of anything. You should know Lexus has never played directly against the Germans, they've always tried offer something a little different. You and everyone else try too hard to compare power vs power when there are so many other factors at play.

In regards to your 86 comment, how funny..you only had 1 comment and only said a few lines rolf...

Yeah its doable for other automakers, but this is Toyota we are talking about.

Lets look at more recent examples. The 86, way down on power when compared to the Mustang. You're RC-F weights 393lbs more than the M4. The GS-F gets destroyed by a less expensive and more powerful M550i.

Sadly they just have a history of releasing more expensive cars that don't match the competition.

..the 86 is a bad example in your "discussion" especially when there are so many other Toyota & Lexus models that would better fit in your conversation. Regardless, if you were a Toyota/Supra fan to begin with, it shouldn't ever come as a surprise that they were never the brand to give you a bargain on power.

...and after your Z comment, I'm not sure if you've driven either car

 

[johnny_10196]

oh please, sales figures almost have no correlation to a vehicle's ability..there are many examples we could bring up (ie nearly all of toyota's entire lineup, among the worst in many benchmarks but leads sales in many classes). Who is not having a hard time moving sedans and coupes off dealer lots? Have you seen BMW & Merc sales? hell, if I'm not mistaken, Toyota was the only automaker to post positive gains in July..and a random cohort of like-minded people who wish something was cheaper is hardly proof of anything. You should know Lexus has never played directly against the Germans, they've always tried offer something a little different. You and everyone else try too hard to compare power vs power when there are so many other factors at play.

In regards to your 86 comment, how funny..you only had 1 comment and only said a few lines rolf...

..the 86 is a bad example in your "discussion". Regardless, if you were a Toyota/Supra fan to begin with, it shouldn't ever come as a surprise that they were never the brand to give you a bargain on power.

...and after your Z comment, I'm not if you've driven either car

One month of sales isn't anything to brag about. Sales will fluctuate from month to month. Its the the whole year that counts. Mercedes doesn't have a hard time moving the S or E class. Best selling in both of their class. The RC-F really isn't good at anything beside collecting dust at the dealer. It lost to the M4 in pretty much every comparison test. The GS-F isn't a bad car to say, its just way over priced. Funny, because some of your past comments you argue the same point about the Corvette vs the new "Supra". You bash on this car because of the rumored performance. Can't the same be said here than? Toyota isn't looking to played directly against the C7 and are wanting to offer something a little different.

The 86 is an example of how Toyota offers less power for the same price. Maybe your bias is starting to show?

Disagree, the MKIV outperform cars that cost way more. Toyota needs to start thinking like that again. Not really a fan boy of any brand, just here for the comments

I have actually have driven the Z

 

[formsracing]

The RC-F really isn't good at thing beside collecting dust at the dealer. It lost to the M4 in pretty much every performance comparison test.

Fixed

I've driven the M4 extensively alongside the RC-F (and GS-F briefly). Both on track and on street. The real world performance isn't close, but the RC-F is a damn sweet ride as well. If you only measure by performance and price alone, Lexus is a step behind the Germans for sure. However, as a holistic experience, Lexus builds quality products.

Edit: Getting back to the Supra. For me, as long as the range topper is packing 400+HP / TQ while under 3400lbs with 86 driving dynamics ( and a manual), I will be a happy camper. Oh, and styling as close as the FT-1 as possible please. It's a different era for cars now. Based the current automotive landscape and the rumored price range for the MKV, asking for anything more is unrealistic.

 

[johnny_10196]

Fixed

I've driven the M4 extensively alongside the RC-F (and GS-F briefly). Both on track and on street. The real world performance isn't close, but the RC-F is a damn sweet ride as well. If you only measure by performance and price alone, Lexus is a step behind the Germans for sure. However, as a holistic experience, Lexus builds quality products.

Sure, I would agree that past BMWs from the mid 2000s are total garbage, but the newer ones seem to be a little better and have less issues. No arguments there, if I were going on across country trip I would rather be in a Lexus vs a BMW.

 

[HKz]

One month of sales isn't anything to brag about. Sales will fluctuate from month to month. Its the the whole year that counts. Mercedes doesn't have a hard time moving the S or E class. Best selling in both of their class. Funny, because some of your past comments you argue the same point about the Corvette. You bash on this car because of the rumored performance. Can't the same be said here than? Toyota isn't looking to played directly against the C7 and are wanting to offer something a little different.

Disagree, the MKIV outperform cars that cost way more. Toyota needs to start thinking like that again.

I have actually have driven the Z

you didn't get my point...it wasn't bragging about toyota, it was to show how stagnant the entire industry is. what about mercedes? do you think their sales is due being the best in class or being a bargain? the higher up you go in price, the more branding & exclusivity becomes bigger factors which the germans, especially mercedes & porsche, are great at...sales only show popularity, nothing else.

where have I bashed this car on performance? lol...i'm happy to admit that i've bashed this car for many things, but nearly all of them revolve around the bmw piece. while getting enough power to scare me a little would be nice, i have never been a power snob so i've specifically refrained from commenting on what my expectations are on power.

 

[vb22]

Getting back on track now, a hypothetical $84k 625HP sports car from Toyota doesn't sound to plausible. The rumor mills are already saying the 600hp+ LC-F will be a $160k-$180k car.

 

[Guff]

As much as I would like to partake in the wet dream that OP has provided us with, that entire list is obscenely unrealistic. The curb weight alone is ridiculous. Also, with an 86x86 engine, you'll be very hard pressed to make that kind of power at 20psi. My Supra is 10.5:1 at 3.0L and made 620hp at 23psi with a 67mm turbo. Sounds more like you're looking for a McLaren 675LT or similar, and that costs a little bit more than 80k. But none of that matters, really. This is a spec discussion for the sake of appeasing a superficial argument that amounts to nothing but numbers on a paper.

Honestly, we need to get off of specs. I completely understand that at this point we can only compare numbers in order to make estimations about what the car will be like but in the end that matters very little. Toyota will give this car the specs it needs to satisfy drivers, not armchair warriors.

This car needs to feel good. The MKIV is, and always has been, a unique experience. Very different to an R33, or an NSX, or a 3000GT, etc. The Supra was the perfect balance of GT and driver's car. It took long drives well, the steering was easy to maneuver and predictable, and it was very balanced, despite its fairly heavy curb weight. People have all but forgotten what that even means. I see complaints about the 86 all day long, but I dare anyone to show me a new car even close to it's MSRP that is even half as balanced, let alone has a chassis as well sorted. Complain about power all you want, you just don’t get it. I’ve driven 86s and Supras on and off track for years now, along with a litany of other cars, and there’s always a distinctive line that can be drawn from the MKIV to the 86. It’s the feel of the thing. It’s the attention to detail in creating chassis feel and tuning damping, the cars’ ease of rotation and predictability, and the quintessentially satisfying rear-drive experience.

Toyota knows how to make a driver’s car, of this I am vehemently sure. And I have no doubt that they will provide that for us in the MKV Supra. Haters and doubters be damned.

 

[johnny_10196]

My comment about the 86 & GS-F may not have been stated in the best way. I wasn't trying to bash on them in anyway. I was simply trying to use current examples to show the OP's desire power and weight is going to cost more than that pipe dream price.

 

[Guff]

My comment about the 86 & GS-F may not have been stated in the best way. I wasn't trying to bash on them in anyway. I was simply trying to use current examples to show the OP's desire power and weight is going to cost more than that pipe dream price.

Of course! Not referring to you or anything, just ranting in a more general manner.

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