Let’s Talk Traction

Snorlax27

Well-Known Member
First Name
JR
Joined
Sep 7, 2020
Posts
165
Reaction score
143
Location
California
Car(s)
2020 GR Supra, 1995 E36 M3
What’s up everyone? Hope everyone is staying safe and doing well!

So I got around to installing my downpipe and a drop in filter along with my first 91 tune earlier today and boy, does this thing rip! I did a couple of pulls for data logging purposes and noticed a couple of things.

With TCS off (single push of the traction button) and in 3rd* gear, WOT had the car’s rear end stepping out at around 3500RPM, which I’m assuming, is when the turbo spools up and max torque is achieved. I’ve never had a car with so much power break traction like this before, but I definitely let off due to fear of losing control lol.

With TCS on, I was able to go WOT in 3rd with minimal spin, but I do feel the car was making adjustments as the throttle was modulating (if that makes any sense) to prevent me from losing control.

My questions are these, especially those pushing tuned vehicles making more power:

1) Are you doing hard pulls with TCS on or off?

2) If you’re doing hard pulls with TCS off, are you modulating the throttle yourself?

3) Would stickier tires (say 295 or 305 width) remedy these issues? I’m thinking R888R.

Any feedback would be appreciated :thumbsup:




Advertisement


 
Last edited:

Axix23

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2019
Posts
1,360
Reaction score
938
Location
GA
Car(s)
NA
What’s up everyone? Hope everyone is staying safe and doing well!

So I got around to installing my downpipe and a drop in filter along with my first 91 tune earlier today and boy, does this thing rip! I did a couple of pulls for data logging purposes and noticed a couple of things.

With TCS off (single push of the traction button) and in 4th gear, WOT had the car’s rear end stepping out at around 3500RPM, which I’m assuming, is when the turbo spools up and max torque is achieved. I’ve never had a car with so much power break traction like this before, but I definitely let off due to fear of losing control lol.

With TCS on, I was able to go WOT in 3rd with minimal spin, but I do feel the car was making adjustments as the throttle was modulating (if that makes any sense) to prevent me from losing control.

My questions are these, especially those pushing tuned vehicles making more power:

1) Are you doing hard pulls with TCS on or off?

2) If you’re doing hard pulls with TCS off, are you modulating the throttle yourself?

3) Would stickier tires (say 295 or 305 width) remedy these issues? I’m thinking R888R.

Any feedback would be appreciated :thumbsup:
leave the traction control on please unless at the dragway or etc.. Remember, more traction = more stress on the transmission/axles
 
OP
Snorlax27

Snorlax27

Well-Known Member
First Name
JR
Joined
Sep 7, 2020
Posts
165
Reaction score
143
Location
California
Car(s)
2020 GR Supra, 1995 E36 M3
  • Thread starter
  • Thread Starter
  • #3
leave the traction control on please unless at the dragway or etc.. Remember, more traction = more stress on the transmission/axles
I can definitely say TCS on made it a smoother experience :yes:

I’m sure having a wider and stickier tire will help remedy some of the issues I was having. I’ve had plenty of experience driving RWD cars without TCS, but power wise they were anemic in comparison to what the Supra is pushing.
 

MA617M

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2017
Posts
2,005
Reaction score
4,674
Location
Australia
Car(s)
lots
With it completely off, (hold button for 5 seconds) even the stock car is a COMPLETELY different animal. Wheelspins through to third, bounces off limiter - is a really sharp, delicate tool.
 

nibble

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 21, 2020
Posts
394
Reaction score
315
Location
NJ
Car(s)
BMW, Honda, Toyota
If you are strictly talking about traction, having 2x50 lb sand bag in your trunk will give you the traction. Probably least expensive option for traction for straight line. however, may not the fastest option.

Having stickier tires will help overall but with higher power, even the stickiest tires will not hold initial acceleration. you need more downforce on rear wheel where sand bag comes into play. But if you want better acceleration at rolling, having a better rear spoiler to put some downforce directly down to the rear wheel will help as well as suspension set up to transfer weight to the rear.
 

Twisted Tuning

Well-Known Member
Gold Sponsor
First Name
Justin
Joined
Mar 10, 2019
Posts
849
Reaction score
1,011
Location
New York
Website
www.twistedtuning.com
Car(s)
Supra MKV, BMW 135i, BMW 335xi, Mazda 6 Twin Turbo,
I drive 98% of the time with the VSC completely off because i don't personally want the car correcting anything im doing. that is me though, i have been racing, building and driving high powered cars for 2 decades.

Just know your limits. But yes, better tires will always help traction and as a result help keep the car manageable. I have R888Rs on all 4 corners on my cars street setup. But they wouldn't be the best option for a daily driver. 200-300 treadwear is decent for a daily driver with good traction at low to moderate torque levels. Get whats a good balance on your pocket as well as the purpose you're get the tires.
 
OP
Snorlax27

Snorlax27

Well-Known Member
First Name
JR
Joined
Sep 7, 2020
Posts
165
Reaction score
143
Location
California
Car(s)
2020 GR Supra, 1995 E36 M3
  • Thread starter
  • Thread Starter
  • #8
If you are strictly talking about traction, having 2x50 lb sand bag in your trunk will give you the traction. Probably least expensive option for traction for straight line. however, may not the fastest option.

Having stickier tires will help overall but with higher power, even the stickiest tires will not hold initial acceleration. you need more downforce on rear wheel where sand bag comes into play. But if you want better acceleration at rolling, having a better rear spoiler to put some downforce directly down to the rear wheel will help as well as suspension set up to transfer weight to the rear.
Will look towards the spoiler route, although I think that will help mostly at higher speeds. The sand bag idea is definitely old school but effective :thumbsup:

I drive 98% of the time with the VSC completely off because i don't personally want the car correcting anything im doing. that is me though, i have been racing, building and driving high powered cars for 2 decades.

Just know your limits. But yes, better tires will always help traction and as a result help keep the car manageable. I have R888Rs on all 4 corners on my cars street setup. But they wouldn't be the best option for a daily driver. 200-300 treadwear is decent for a daily driver with good traction at low to moderate torque levels. Get whats a good balance on your pocket as well as the purpose you're get the tires.
Thanks for the feedback! Up until this point, the MSS stock tires are the best street tires I’ve ever owned, but I’m afraid the addition of my flex fuel tune will really push it well past its limits in the straights. Heard the R888R wear very quickly and are noisy as a daily, but I’m willing to sacrifice and pay up if it means I’m planted on the road ;).

You’re definitely right about knowing your limits. Up until this point, I’m so used to driving RWD sh*tbox beater cars that the power took me by surprise. Probably won’t try doing pulls with TCS entirely off until I can get the rubber to match the power.
 

nibble

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 21, 2020
Posts
394
Reaction score
315
Location
NJ
Car(s)
BMW, Honda, Toyota
So here's my experience on spoiler.

Many moons ago, I supercharged my s2000 and gained about 100 hp. On a launch from standing, big burn out on 1st, burn out on 2nd, and chirp on 3rd. along with that mod, I also had CF hood and trunk lid. although trunk lid fit quite well, one thing I didn't like was how trunk lid sprung open and flapping. This was due to extra spring I had from original trunk lid. So I thought I should put some weight on the trunk and best way was to put on a spoiler. It wasn't heavy as it was ebay CF wing - this was the time S2000 parts (after market) weren't readily available with variety just like GR Supra now. It worked great and looked good as well. trunk lid was not flapping around when opened. but then I noticed something...

I have grip! once it launches duration of burn out on 1st gear was less. 2nd gear, only chirp. 3rd gear, it just pulled. So this was eureka moment for me that even for this cheap ebay spoiler, when it's setup properly, it will start to work from just around 30~40 mph. obviously, it does nothing when it's standing but once it start moving, it will start to give traction given it is setup right.

After that, since I have grip, my clutch (stock) started to slip which I had to replace within few hundred miles. After replacing clutch, my Diff went south, & ETC.. you get the story.
 
OP
Snorlax27

Snorlax27

Well-Known Member
First Name
JR
Joined
Sep 7, 2020
Posts
165
Reaction score
143
Location
California
Car(s)
2020 GR Supra, 1995 E36 M3
  • Thread starter
  • Thread Starter
  • #10
So here's my experience on spoiler.

Many moons ago, I supercharged my s2000 and gained about 100 hp. On a launch from standing, big burn out on 1st, burn out on 2nd, and chirp on 3rd. along with that mod, I also had CF hood and trunk lid. although trunk lid fit quite well, one thing I didn't like was how trunk lid sprung open and flapping. This was due to extra spring I had from original trunk lid. So I thought I should put some weight on the trunk and best way was to put on a spoiler. It wasn't heavy as it was ebay CF wing - this was the time S2000 parts (after market) weren't readily available with variety just like GR Supra now. It worked great and looked good as well. trunk lid was not flapping around when opened. but then I noticed something...

I have grip! once it launches duration of burn out on 1st gear was less. 2nd gear, only chirp. 3rd gear, it just pulled. So this was eureka moment for me that even for this cheap ebay spoiler, when it's setup properly, it will start to work from just around 30~40 mph. obviously, it does nothing when it's standing but once it start moving, it will start to give traction given it is setup right.

After that, since I have grip, my clutch (stock) started to slip which I had to replace within few hundred miles. After replacing clutch, my Diff went south, & ETC.. you get the story.
Haha, that’s awesome! The downforce/ weight of that wing must have helped keep that rear planted. It’s no wonder Chevy decided to switch up the Corvette and make it mid engine. That engine weight on those rear tires definitely help that thing launch HARD out of the hole.

I definitely know I will be placing a spoiler on the GR Supra. I’m leaning towards the street hunter wing mostly for the aesthetic but any performance gain from it would just be a bonus lol.

Next major modification for my Supra will be a set of TE37SLs paired with R888R. Spinning ain’t winning lol:nixon:
 

Gearbangin

Well-Known Member
First Name
Larry
Joined
Jan 18, 2019
Posts
282
Reaction score
395
Location
Gods Country
Car(s)
2020 Supra 175/1500 2007 TRD Edition FJ Cruiser/Lifted/Murdered out 2016 NT 200T F Sport 2019 RCF Anniversary Edition Matte Nebula Gray
R888R for daily use and then the M&H Racemasters when Im serious.
 

diablo2112

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2020
Posts
128
Reaction score
195
Location
Southwest USA
Car(s)
2021 Supra 3.0 Premium
Spoilers and Wings are two very different things. Spoilers break up turbulent flow and reduce drag. Properly designed, they improve fuel efficiency. Many cars incorporate spoilers for just this reason.

Wings provide downforce. They also increase drag, substantially. In racing, these 2 forces must be balanced. On a street car, they're mainly cosmetic. A wing really doesn't produce any notable downforce until about 60-70mph. Above this, they can begin to produce quite a bit, as downforce increases with the square of velocity.

If you really want to improve traction, the place to look is ground effects. The Supra has a wonderfully designed, flat undercarriage. A proper rear diffuser could potentially provide the greatest aerodynamic benefit, compared to a wing. It would take a bit of wind-tunnel testing to find the optimum configuration. I would guess dedicated Race teams would undertake this research. Pay attention to diffusers and wings on the Supra GT4 in the next year or two. That will tell you what works best.
 
OP
Snorlax27

Snorlax27

Well-Known Member
First Name
JR
Joined
Sep 7, 2020
Posts
165
Reaction score
143
Location
California
Car(s)
2020 GR Supra, 1995 E36 M3
  • Thread starter
  • Thread Starter
  • #13
Spoilers and Wings are two very different things. Spoilers break up turbulent flow and reduce drag. Properly designed, they improve fuel efficiency. Many cars incorporate spoilers for just this reason.

Wings provide downforce. They also increase drag, substantially. In racing, these 2 forces must be balanced. On a street car, they're mainly cosmetic. A wing really doesn't produce any notable downforce until about 60-70mph. Above this, they can begin to produce quite a bit, as downforce increases with the square of velocity.

If you really want to improve traction, the place to look is ground effects. The Supra has a wonderfully designed, flat undercarriage. A proper rear diffuser could potentially provide the greatest aerodynamic benefit, compared to a wing. It would take a bit of wind-tunnel testing to find the optimum configuration. I would guess dedicated Race teams would undertake this research. Pay attention to diffusers and wings on the Supra GT4 in the next year or two. That will tell you what works best.
Great point! Mostly buying the wing for looks, performance comes secondary for that.

I’ll be on the lookout for a good diffuser later down the line. The GT4 is definitely for big boy racing, so I probably won’t go as aggressive for a comparable street setup.

My primary issue is gaining any sort of traction from a dead stop or slow roll. I’ve been looking at how other higher powered cars like ZL1s and Hellcats handle all their power.
 

Dannyvandelft

Well-Known Member
First Name
Danny
Joined
Jan 15, 2019
Posts
1,314
Reaction score
1,505
Location
44133
Car(s)
Ordered A91 edition Supra
At slow speeds, tires. At higher speeds, aero.

As you increase torque, tires will have a harder time hooking up. So you have to get stickier tires, wider tires, run less psi, or a combination thereof. All of which reduce treadwear significantly.
Another part of it is how you apply throttle. If you're smooth and roll on you'll have less issues than if you're just burying it in the firewall as soon as you come off the brake.
TCS helps with that, because it modulates the throttle for you.
 
OP
Snorlax27

Snorlax27

Well-Known Member
First Name
JR
Joined
Sep 7, 2020
Posts
165
Reaction score
143
Location
California
Car(s)
2020 GR Supra, 1995 E36 M3
  • Thread starter
  • Thread Starter
  • #15
At slow speeds, tires. At higher speeds, aero.

As you increase torque, tires will have a harder time hooking up. So you have to get stickier tires, wider tires, run less psi, or a combination thereof. All of which reduce treadwear significantly.
Another part of it is how you apply throttle. If you're smooth and roll on you'll have less issues than if you're just burying it in the firewall as soon as you come off the brake.
TCS helps with that, because it modulates the throttle for you.
I learned this first hand the first couple of pulls with TCS off and then on. I definitely bury my foot into the firewall since I’m so used to driving low Hp/ Tq cars. I am very guilty of that :lol:. I guess I better practice restraint and learn how to modulate.
 

Advertisement











 


Advertisement


Top