News Update and Discussion on Next-gen A100 Supra

A70TTR

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^ Generally takes about 5 years, yes. But just because the A90 is set to end production then doesn't mean that whatever replaces it will instantly be available. It could also not happen at all given the current automotive climate, but hopefully that's not the case.

I6 of course, but if that means BMW involvement then I'll gladly take the V6.
What if it was from another manufacturer? Is the most important thing that the engine is from Toyota versus design? What about the platform itself? Say the drivetrain was Toyota and platform was from someone else?




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2JZ-No-Sh*t

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What if it was from another manufacturer? Is the most important thing that the engine is from Toyota versus design? What about the platform itself? Say the drivetrain was Toyota and platform was from someone else?
For me a 100% in house Supra would be ideal. No compromise with another automaker would be a huge positive. I'll be happy with a reskin LC with that turbo V6 hybrid.

However, if push comes to shove a Toyota powertrain and let's say a Mazda RX9 chassis would not be a deal breaker for me.

I would prefer any of the two hypothetical scenarios above over to what is currently being offered.
 

sdot

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^ Generally takes about 5 years, yes. But just because the A90 is set to end production then doesn't mean that whatever replaces it will instantly be available. It could also not happen at all given the current automotive climate, but hopefully that's not the case.



What if it was from another manufacturer? Is the most important thing that the engine is from Toyota versus design? What about the platform itself? Say the drivetrain was Toyota and platform was from someone else?
The biggest issues with the BMW partnership is the fact that they are not a Japanese carmaker, and they don’t have a good reputation for reliability and ease of maintenance. People buy Japanese sports cars because they want Japanese engineering. I think the market would def be more receptive to a Mazda partnership for the next Supra for this reason. I don’t remember people criticizing the FR-S/86 for being “just a Subaru”, and that car was an overall success.
 

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Speaking of which, what would everyone here prefer? a V6 or a legacy design like an aluminum block inline 6? Is the latter design more important than the advantages presented by the former? Hypothetically speaking, let's say they make around the same power and have about the same head room.
Oof... tough one.

Okay well... if we're talking about a Supra then if the option for a really well designed (preferably over-designed for tuning strength) legacy style inline 6 turbo engine is available I'd prefer it. Personally I love inline-six engines.

However... excellent performance V6 engines have been around for quite a while and if a really well designed (over-designed for tuning strength) V6 with twin turbos were to be the best option with the best motorsport-for-the-street focus between the two... I could go for a V6.

Now with a V6TT (hybrid or not) I would also not want to encounter an engine bay as packed and hard to work with as in a Z32-TT. It's getting increasingly more difficult to do these days but an I6 RWD layout is often much easier to work on than a longitudinal V6TT RWD layout.

If both this hypothetical I6 and hypothetical V6 make the same power and have the same head room then that levels the decision making process considerably.

A question this brings up is why Toyota wanted inline-six performance engine families throughout the 1980's-1990's? Was it purely the balanced nature of an I6? Was it a perception that all the best European cars of the time had I6's? I'm not complaining as we got the long in production JZ series out of it and the 5M, 6M, 7M, 1G-GTE and 1FZ-FE.

But after 2006 or so inline-sixes just were not the ideal engine of choice in Toyota and Lexus models even in larger RWD platforms.

I know the V6 engines of today are better, smoother and more advanced than they have ever been and if designed for turbocharging and heavy abuse and tuning for more power out of the box they can do almost everything the best previous I6 gems can do.

I think there is a lot to be said for an all-Toyota in-house Supra or any all in-house performance Toyota no matter which style engine it uses. Both V6TT and I6T/TT can be fantastic.

I am always going to instantly love a great performance inline-six vehicle no question. But make a compelling enough argument for me such as an all-Toyota V6TT that is every bit as good as a 1JZ/2JZ but with years of modern advancements and it will be very hard to argue with.

Nissan's RB25 and RB26 engines are legendary as well but they not only designed the excellent VR38DETT but derived a 3.0L-TT from it as well. If Nissan can move from the RB to the VR and spread that V6 engine family to a few of their vehicles then so can Toyota if they wish to.

I also second the feeling that acceptance of a new inline-six performance Toyota or Lexus the engine of which comes from another Japanese manufacturer-- especially if Toyota and/or Yamaha have some hand in the development and R&D of it-- will be more universally accepted than the BMW partnership's otherwise excellent in their own right inline-six engines have been.

A70, you mentioned above in one comment if the engine style was more important than the chassis or platform that would be used to house it and create the entire car. Without question the chassis/platform is a huge consideration that outweighs the specific engine configuration. The two (engine type and platform/chassis) go hand in hand. The engine (and possible hybrid system that might be a part of it) just has to be a very serious bit of hardware whether or not it is an inline-six or a V6.

Either route could work but the I6 would ideally be an all-Toyota design or one from another Japanese company with Toyota's additional R&D to it. The V6... I'd find it hard to believe that Toyota could not design this all themselves but the same logic applies I think.
 
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Teemc

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What if it was from another manufacturer? Is the most important thing that the engine is from Toyota versus design? What about the platform itself? Say the drivetrain was Toyota and platform was from someone else?
I feel like any collaboration Toyota does with the Supra will be met with similar criticisms, although maybe less so if it's a Japanese company. (I wonder what people with mindsets similar to those over at supraforums would think about that...)

If Toyota HAS to collaborate with another company on the Supra it would have to be either Yamaha or Mazda I think. If they choose Yamaha I reckon people would be a lot more receptive to the car (since Toyota and Yamaha have a long history together).

If they choose Mazda I think Toyota would face similar criticism but less so compared to the current Supra (since it's a Japanese company). Although I don't know how much should be shared between Mazda and Toyota for people to not lose their shit or be critical of it lol.
 
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Captain_Kirk

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For me a 100% in house Supra would be ideal. No compromise with another automaker would be a huge positive. I'll be happy with a reskin LC with that turbo V6 hybrid.

However, if push comes to shove a Toyota powertrain and let's say a Mazda RX9 chassis would not be a deal breaker for me.

I would prefer any of the two hypothetical scenarios above over to what is currently being offered.
Yes, I think most people would rather Toyota had gone with either of those two choices over the route they took.

The biggest issues with the BMW partnership is the fact that they are not a Japanese carmaker, and they don’t have a good reputation for reliability and ease of maintenance. People buy Japanese sports cars because they want Japanese engineering. I think the market would def be more receptive to a Mazda partnership for the next Supra for this reason. I don’t remember people criticizing the FR-S/86 for being “just a Subaru”, and that car was an overall success.
Same, one reason why I'm not 100% sold on the current car. Agree, I also think the mass will be more accepting towards a RXupra vs the Zupra. While Toyota had more involvement with BRZ/86 that did not mean it was not met without criticism. The outcry just was as loud as it was with the Toyobaru. Also, I think think the Supra nameplate itself holds more history, importance, and meaning to most Toyota fan boys vs the 86, so when Toyota "out source" it to the BMW it hit home hard. :(

I feel like any collaboration Toyota does with the Supra will be met with similar criticisms, although maybe less so if it's a Japanese company. I think it's a question better suited for people with mindsets similar to those over at supraforums. People here are more open to collaborations.

If Toyota HAS to collaborate with another company on the Supra it would have to be either Yamaha or Mazda I think. If they choose Yamaha I reckon people would be a lot more receptive to the car (since Toyota and Yamaha have a long history together).

If they choose Mazda I think Toyota would face similar criticism but less so compared to the current Supra (since it's a Japanese company). Although I don't know how much should be shared between Mazda and Toyota for people to not lose their shit or be critical of it lol.
Yup, if it's not a 100% in house project the internet will have something to say on the matter.
 
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supraboi

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^ Generally takes about 5 years, yes. But just because the A90 is set to end production then doesn't mean that whatever replaces it will instantly be available. It could also not happen at all given the current automotive climate, but hopefully that's not the case.
Ah ok, that makes sense. I do also recall some models taking a year or two break before reappearing. Same here, would hate to go through the FT-HS all over again. :(

I was going to ask if they were finally going to place the engine in the back like Tada had originally wanted, but seeing all the Mazda responds (assuming new RX) it seems like it will continue on as a front engine. So I wanted to ask, why leave BMW for the next Supra? Was working with the Germans that difficult?
 

A70TTR

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Ah ok, that makes sense. I do also recall some models taking a year or two break before reappearing. Same here, would hate to go through the FT-HS all over again. :(

I was going to ask if they were finally going to place the engine in the back like Tada had originally wanted, but seeing all the Mazda responds (assuming new RX) it seems like it will continue on as a front engine. So I wanted to ask, why leave BMW for the next Supra? Was working with the Germans that difficult?
BMW was multitudes harder to deal with than Subaru. In fact, Subaru was fairly easy in comparison all things considered. But that's not really why things are going in a different direction IMO
 

F1 Silver Arrows

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Rumor has it the next RX is hybrid, but that doesn't necessarily mean Mazda is going to be the answer :)


Speaking of which, what would everyone here prefer? a V6 or a legacy design like an aluminum block inline 6? Is the latter design more important than the advantages presented by the former? Hypothetically speaking, let's say they make around the same power and have about the same head room.
What up y'all. I'm back. If y'all cannot tell (I can't blame you if you couldn't), I'm F1 Silver Arrows. I'm back after a hiatus of ~5 months as my account got suspended because I apparently harassed someone and used harsh language against them... hmm... whatever. I am trying to get my old account back but so far it is to no avail. I couldn't make a new account earlier because since I was always logged in these forums, I couldn't to make a single move (I wasn't even allowed to log out) since I got banned. Anyways, sorry @A70TTR for hijacking this post by mentioning my return. Speaking about your post...... I have my viewpoint, and what better to start my post than here and get right into it like I did last time around?

Here's what I think, and since you still have the opportunity to talk to them and give them feedback from us, I would be thrilled to be a part of this especially since we're in the pre-production and the idea stage of the A100 Supra.

I, like many others in this forum, was a little bit apprehensive about this entire partnership at first for the A90 GR Supra/G29 BMW Z4. However once I got to learn about what went into this partnership on both BMW's and Toyota's side, I immediately knew we were in for something truly special. The mesh of Japan and Germany is always going to be one for the history books, however you want to look at it. The end product is a genuine Japanese car with some German technology and flair. The guys at SupraForums can shove a fat, girthy, cactus up their ass and twist it round and round for all I care.

I have always postulated that Toyota should use this soon to be legendary B58 engine and morph it more into a Toyota engine by using more Toyota parts, ideologies and technologies that are derived from themselves. It will solve the numerous problems that people have had with the A90 GR Supra where one, it has a lot of BMW parts (yes there are a bunch of Toyota-specific parts too I know, I know), and on Toyota's end, they had to partner up because this is such a niche product to save money on research and development when it comes to particularly engine design. We all know that if we wanted Toyota to spend money and create a badass inline-six from scratch it would cost them from half a billion to even a billion dollars in research and development, then not be able to amortize the costs across multiple Toyota and Lexus vehicles because we have the V35A-FTS engine from the Lexus LS500 that's waiting to be in more Toyota and Lexus vehicles.

We all know that it was very hard for Toyota to knock this car out of the park on their own in terms of merit and price after being out of the game for an astonishing ~20 years, so BMW was involved and hey, I actually went to my local Toyota dealership around a week ago, and after I inquired a salesman about the Supra, he immediately said there's a TWO YEAR WAITLIST FOR THE GR SUPRA! HOLY SHIT! This, with the sales numbers are proof that this car is a genuine success and it is everything that the enthusiast-minded executives at Toyota Motor Corporation needed to give the annoying ass bean counters a fat middle finger without having to fire them and can continue making more driver-focused cars. Now, the GR86 is going to be on a Toyota platform, and most likely the same thing for the A100 Supra.

For the A100 Supra, there aren't anymore roadblocks that Toyota faced previously with the A90 GR Supra. Now with that being said, I still think an inline-six is the perfect heart for a Supra, hence why I believe that putting more development money into the BMW B58 is my ideal route. Toyota is still saving tens of millions (maybe hundreds) in development costs while having an engine that's harmonically balanced, creamy, buttery smooth, and sounds soooo goood. Toyota could strip the engine down like they did before but this time instead of approving parts of the engine or making other changes (be it Toyota's or BMW's changes) for the sake of reliability, now they could start making changes so that some people can stop bitching, and to give the engine a more unique personality (as if it wasn't already unique compared to every single other car that has a B58 engine, no other BMW car that has the B58 is like the GR Supra) and performance.

You mentioned that the A100 Supra will be a hybrid, so I think this is a great opportunity to implement some technologies from the Toyota TS050 Hybrid LMP-1 car, particularly THSR-II but obviously simplified and watered down enough for the A100 Supra as obviously we're having the GR SuperSport hypercar as the pinnacle of Toyota's car lineup. Now that I suggested this I do have a question, do you think it is possible for Toyota to be able implement their hybrid system with a now more "Toyotafied" B58 engine?

I do hope all of this could work with a manual transmission. I honestly do believe that as road car technology progresses, a manual transmission won't be as detrimental to a car when it comes to fuel economy. But on the other hand, to meet average fuel economy standards for countries around the world, would a manual Supra that has a few (more like 1 or 2 lol) less MPG's than the automatic variant be that detrimental to Toyota's average MPG in their lineup? In my humble opinion, since Toyota is going at least having all of their vehicles have a hybrid option or be all hybrid by 2025, I don't think it should be a problem for Toyota.

Now you didn't ask about this, now that I've said my piece about what I think the engine should be and that it should have a manual, will Toyota just in some way rehash the current Supra and use the TNGA platform instead or will it be a completely different design in terms of chassis length, width, height and bracing? Basically what I'm asking is that will Toyota make the car larger again? Or make it even smaller or keep it similar to the A90 GR Supra? We do know that the philosophy of each Supra is different from the one it replaces.

Also if you don't mind me asking, I heard the LC F got cancelled, so do you have a clue where the 4.0L twin-turbocharged V8 is going?

It's great to be back.

EDIT: WOAHHHHH HOLY CRAP IT CHANGED BACK TO F1 SILVER ARROWS!! THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR GIVING ME MY ACCOUNT GUYS! <3 It took me a few seconds to actually notice because I was getting updates from several months ago then I saw my username was different haha. It really is great to be back!
 
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jm6k

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Rumor has it the next RX is hybrid, but that doesn't necessarily mean Mazda is going to be the answer :)


Speaking of which, what would everyone here prefer? a V6 or a legacy design like an aluminum block inline 6? Is the latter design more important than the advantages presented by the former? Hypothetically speaking, let's say they make around the same power and have about the same head room.
The irrational need for an I6 is what got us a BMW sourced car. I know I said it years ago on here, but I'm sure if Nissan had asked fans of the Skyline if the next GTR should have an I6 or a V6 they would have said a Skyline MUST have an I6 and lost their minds at the idea of a V motor in a Skyline. I didn't hear many complaints about the motor when the GTR came out.

Isn’t the GR Yaris getting a hybrid too though? Something something WRC 2022 something something
The hybrid that they've shown doesn't really make sense. GR Yaris body with a 118hp hybrid setup. I'm guessing this comes from the need to sell so many of them. Could be a sign of things to come though. https://www.topgear.com/car-news/hot-hatch/meet-2020s-weirdest-hot-hatch-118bhp-toyota-gr-yaris-rs

What if it was from another manufacturer? Is the most important thing that the engine is from Toyota versus design? What about the platform itself? Say the drivetrain was Toyota and platform was from someone else?
It's been a long time since we had a Toyota sports car with a Toyota engine. I think it needs to happen.

And hypothetically, if we're talking about a Mazda chassis, it seems like that's where Mazda scores the most points on any attempt at sporty cars in the past 20 years. Back to the Mazdaspeed Protégé they have a history of great handling chassis and underwhelming engines.

All Toyota would be ideal, but if we're sharing, it's at least time for a Toyota engine.
 

justbake

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The irrational need for an I6 is what got us a BMW sourced car. I know I said it years ago on here, but I'm sure if Nissan had asked fans of the Skyline if the next GTR should have an I6 or a V6 they would have said a Skyline MUST have an I6 and lost their minds at the idea of a V motor in a Skyline. I didn't hear many complaints about the motor when the GTR came out.
I agree with this 100% and their caused such a huge backlash regardless of how good this car is. Inline 6 is such a weird thing to hold absolute heritage to when they the existence of the 4 cylinder model breaks that philosophy that they just had to follow. There are so many 'firsts' for this car that trying to stick to heritage while also making something new is impossible.

First Supra without a manual.
First Supra an aluminum block.
First Supra with direct injection.
First e-diff Supra.
First 2 seat Supra.
First Supra with dual exhausts.

Those who refuse to change will be stuck in the past. I deal with customers all day who want a new and fresh system, but want it to function like their old system and refuse to learn it which just makes life harder for themselves and the new system pointless. Those who stick to heritage are just stuck in the past. In reality they have to break heritage in the pursuit of making a better car, even if that means a hybrid, v6/v8/i4, or AWD Supra.

The unfortunate part of Toyota sticking to heritage here is that they are no longer in control of their flagship Toyota model.

The hybrid that they've shown doesn't really make sense. GR Yaris body with a 118hp hybrid setup. I'm guessing this comes from the need to sell so many of them. Could be a sign of things to come though. https://www.topgear.com/car-news/hot-hatch/meet-2020s-weirdest-hot-hatch-118bhp-toyota-gr-yaris-rs
I was more or less referring to this https://www.pmw-magazine.com/news/race-series-news/toyota-will-not-run-new-gr-yaris-in-2021-wrc.html
 

2JZ-No-Sh*t

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The irrational need for an I6 is what got us a BMW sourced car. I know I said it years ago on here, but I'm sure if Nissan had asked fans of the Skyline if the next GTR should have an I6 or a V6 they would have said a Skyline MUST have an I6 and lost their minds at the idea of a V motor in a Skyline. I didn't hear many complaints about the motor when the GTR came out.
IIRC, people were too busy complaining about how ugly it was and how there was no MT.
 

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