Next Porsche 718 will be exclusively an EV

[KahnBB6]

https://www.motor1.com/news/574313/porsche-718-electric-2025-launch/

This is a hell of a lot more appealing than the Taycan or any of their SUVs and is much closer than that to what I personally expect in a Porsche as far as their new concepts go.

Now a further question is whether or not Tetsuya Tada has ties to this regarding Toyota's EV two seater "maybe it'll be an MR2?" project...

The image in the article is just a re-imagining of the Porsche Mission R into a more road legal looking model.

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[F1 Silver Arrows]

Now a further question is whether or not Tetsuya Tada has ties to this regarding Toyota's EV two seater "maybe it'll be an MR2?" project...

That man has retired a loooong time ago. Let him rest lol. There are a ton of upcoming engineers that are complete and total car and racing enthusiasts like him.

Looking at the direction in which Toyota is going now, they're not going too crazily like they were in the early-90's, but weren't resting on their laurels in the late-2000's. They're in a good place, and I think they're going to start producing more and more sports cars on their own as it has been proven internally that people worldwide froth at the mouth for a honestly good Toyota sports car.

 

[KahnBB6]

I was not aware that Tetsuya Tada had retired

I thought his next and last project for GR was going to be whatever the MR2 project turns into. I must have misinterpreted something even though he discussed it loosely.

Im very happy for his contributions with the GT86 and Supra A90.

Yes, I think they're in a much better place now than they were before. And I know that he has had a positive influence on other up-and-coming engineers within the company as to producing more sports cars and fun cars.

 

[Elektro]

if the price is near exisiting cayman this would be near the top of my list to replace the supra eventually.

Hopefully they can keep the weight reasonable. Not everybody needs a two ton ev that goes eleventy bajillion miles per charge.

 

[Gazoou]

I’d rather have an EV Cayman/Boxster over a silly 2.0 or 2.5L H4. Yuck.

 

[KahnBB6]

if the price is near exisiting cayman this would be near the top of my list to replace the supra eventually.

Hopefully they can keep the weight reasonable. Not everybody needs a two ton ev that goes eleventy bajillion miles per charge.

^^ I think this is precisely why Toyota has been working on solid state battery technology (and other promising experimental battery designs) and hydrogen fuel cell tech in addition to their current-term hybrid gas-electric engines.

And yes, hydrogen internal combustion for long distance range extenders and potentially for fun niche ICE performance cars.

They know that weight is the enemy and while some nearer-term EV designs will use the conventional lithium-ion entire floorpan size batteries they have a vision to overcome those limitations with more time, more R&D and a lot more QC testing.

And I agree that not all electric vehicles need something ridiculous like 1,000 miles of charge storage every day. I don't even like to drive more than just over 600 miles in a single day even when I am on a long distance trip.

The trouble for the moment is that in order to get really high EV horsepower output generally a very large and thus very heavy lithium-ion battery is needed. The entire industry needs to perfect better technology to overcome that penalty.

...

Beyond that an easy thing for Toyota to do immediately with their fun enthusiast oriented performance EVs is to stick with driver-focused controls and interiors and stay away from this plague of touchscreens dominating many modern EV concepts.

And since this is a thread primarily about the next-generation Porsche 718... that goes for Porsche as well.

 

[Elektro]

The trouble for the moment is that in order to get really high EV horsepower output generally a very large and thus very heavy lithium-ion battery is needed. The entire industry needs to perfect better technology to overcome that penalty.

No, look at prius prime, rav4 prime. 110 HP out of 8 kwh. 230 HP out of 18 kwh. At that specific power you can exceed the ICE with a battery that weighs less than the old engine. And those are conservative toyota numbers with 150k warranty. No way they have less than 25 kwh for 300 hp (current ICE output)

And these are all still NMC chemisty. If you want a lot of power there is LTO, etc.

 

[B58_ hwAyaq]

People hate on fake engine noise in the cabin on ICE cars, but I’d like to see that idea explored further on enthusiast-oriented EVs.

Between the actual audio and low bass frequencies (I believe Rivian has an example like this), I think some of the visceral feel of ICE cars can be adapted to an electric future.

Extra bonus: being able to go into comfort mode and have it be silent would be really nice.

Extra extra bonus: Being able to tune (ha) your own aftermarket sound/bass frequencies into the car would be interesting. Want to be a Ferrari for the day? Have at it.

If anyone will be successful at an initial attempt at this, I think it would be Porsche.

 

[KahnBB6]

People hate on fake engine noise in the cabin on ICE cars, but I’d like to see that idea explored further on enthusiast-oriented EVs.

Between the actual audio and low bass frequencies (I believe Rivian has an example like this), I think some of the visceral feel of ICE cars can be adapted to an electric future.

Extra bonus: being able to go into comfort mode and have it be silent would be really nice.

Extra extra bonus: Being able to tune (ha) your own aftermarket sound/bass frequencies into the car would be interesting. Want to be a Ferrari for the day? Have at it.

If anyone will be successful at an initial attempt at this, I think it would be Porsche.

Sound is a key part of the experience for sure. With an internal combustion vehicle I absolutely hate fake engine noise generators and would disable that through a menu or if necessary by physically changing wiring or a module in the car.

However with an EV I agree that there is the problem of *too little* sound. Although I notice that most EV's do make some kind of high frequency noise all on their own in addition to the tire noise that all vehicles have.

But with a similar complaint I feel the OEM's are doing it wrong by implementing these totally made up sounds for acceleration and deceleration.

Why not simply pick up on or enhance the very sound that the AC permanent magnet or AC induction motors themselves make? Why not implement a cut to the final drive gears meshing that lets us hear a bit more driveline gear noise naturally? Or... how about picking up on and amplifying RF interference noise from the motor drive unit as current moves through it on each revolution in the same way that some car stereo AM radio modes picking up on random RF frequency noise from the drivetrain of the car?

Sure, custom programming of a wide variety of fake custom generated EV vehicle noise is bound to become a popular thing. I'd just like to see some effort be put into ways to capitalize on mechanical and electronic noise that is already being generated by EV drivelines just by means of their normal function.

 

[KahnBB6]

No, look at prius prime, rav4 prime. 110 HP out of 8 kwh. 230 HP out of 18 kwh. At that specific power you can exceed the ICE with a battery that weighs less than the old engine. And those are conservative toyota numbers with 150k warranty. No way they have less than 25 kwh for 300 hp (current ICE output)

And these are all still NMC chemisty. If you want a lot of power there is LTO, etc.

Those are very good numbers for hybrid vehicles but I mean for full EV's that are driver/performance oriented vehicles.

I DO think the weight and size of battery packs are incrementally coming down especially as cell density continues to improve. A 2022 Tesla Model 3 Performance (4,250lbs) now weighs only 545lbs more than a 2022 Ford Mustang GT 5.0L (3,705lbs in the standard trim) and even the Mustang is what I consider a "heavy" car to begin with especially when compared to a GR86 or Miata.

So long as smaller and reasonably power dense battery packs with enough nominal voltage output can be fitted to performance oriented vehicles I really feel that it is fast charging options and 800V high voltage architectures that will even out all of this.

DC fast charging (or greater) as an always-there option as needed with an expansive charging network everywhere should do the rest.

If Tesla and Porsche could each take 1,000lbs off the curb weight of their Model S Plaid and Taycan Turbo S respectively right now and still deliver the same range and performance figures they would.

If, right now, Toyota could make a small and fun 2-seater RWD 100% EV enthusiast's car with 250hp that weighs only 2,800-3,000lbs, gets 200-300 miles on a full charge, can recharge to nearly full capacity in 10min or less, has little to no battery degradation for 10-15 years, which has no overheating issues under repeated hard track use and which has no packaging compromises whatsoever to accommodate a large and heavy battery pack... they would do that too.

I know that we will get there and maybe sooner than we think. Right now we're dealing with the size, weight and power density limitations of 2022 in-production battery cell technology which will be improved upon greatly year by year.

 

[Elektro]

I DO think the weight and size of battery packs are incrementally coming down especially as cell density continues to improve.

NMC chemistry hasn't changed much in a decade and it's not for lack of trying. There have been process improvements, costs are well down and manufacturing is super consistent. This technology has served us well but you are talking about packaging, cooling, manufacturing optimization... the chemistry isn't changing much.

There are other cells (at a previous employer - with a 1500 lb 70 kwh battery - we used LFP exclusively because of safety) but for BEVs, NMC is still where it's at.

I expect by the end of the decade there will be something new to replace it. But every year there is some new "revolutionary" chemical or process: remember aluminum-air batteries? And nothing comes out of it.

 

[KahnBB6]

NMC chemistry hasn't changed much in a decade and it's not for lack of trying. There have been process improvements, costs are well down and manufacturing is super consistent. This technology has served us well but you are talking about packaging, cooling, manufacturing optimization... the chemistry isn't changing much.

There are other cells (at a previous employer - with a 1500 lb 70 kwh battery - we used LFP exclusively because of safety) but for BEVs, NMC is still where it's at.

I expect by the end of the decade there will be something new to replace it. But every year there is some new "revolutionary" chemical or process: remember aluminum-air batteries? And nothing comes out of it.

I am admittedly not in the business as you are and so your experience at either suppliers or an OEM vehicle manufacturer or design firm gives you superior experience with various cell implementations and chemistries.

I try to keep tabs on any new chemical process that emerges and yes, some do fizzle out quite disappointingly for one reason or another.

Aluminum-air in particular hasn't had much improvement in the last few years. Other than solid state designs (particularly Toyota's and Quantumscape's) variations of sodium-ion and sodium-acetate chemistries are of current interest to me... but as you say a breakthrough with any of these has not presented itself yet. Last I checked, Toyota's issue with their own solid state batteries in their labs was related to degradation from just a few charge cycles.

For anything being designed and considered for production right now, yes, anything with lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide chemistries seems to be the standard, other than Tesla's use of nickel cobalt aluminum in most (all?) of their battery packs.

I agree with you that a new and better industry-wide cell chemistry is probably at least ten years or so away. *Maybe* five years just for initial introduction before any large scale series production of whatever it may be can occur.

Whatever the next better, lighter and more energy dense cell chemistry turns out to be it is not a question of "if" but "when" it finally passes all the QC and durability hurdles to enter large scale production.

You'll have to forgive me for ultimately being an optimist about this. With all the collective research being put in we're bound to hit upon a superior and just as if not more reliable battery cell design eventually.... or more likely several such superior chemistries with strengths in various applications.

 

[gymratter]

i wonder if this is a preview of whats to come

 

[KahnBB6]

i wonder if this is a preview of whats to come

I have every expectation that it is. Holy cow I love the sound of that thing. No stupid synthesized fake noise-- just loud natural motor whine that increases and decreases with vehicle speed. That's the way to do it.

A machine like that just at the 600hp setting (1,000hp capable) with no ABS or TC with that suspension would be a stunning drive!

And from what the chief engineer said, the motors used are from the Taycan but completely redesigned internally. Not just batteries but motors are improving at the R&D level. This also means the rear motor in this Cayman has a built-in two speed gearbox probably with some form of mechanical LSD.... unless they designed a diff center that is electronically controlled.

I would also love to see the oil-based cooling system make production rather than using a more conventional coolant with antifreeze. Seems to handle serious track abuse quite well.

If the road going homologation version can have sound like that and avoid being legislated into being whisper-quiet with just annoying fake noise it will be a winner.

 

[BadOne]

i wonder if this is a preview of whats to come

This car sounds like tinnitus on wheels. Hopefully they dial it down for the final version.
RIP my ears from that video.

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