Report: Toyota Supra and BMW Z4 development teams cut ties 4 years ago

[Spilner]

Toyota Supra and BMW Z4 development teams cut ties way back in 2014
The teams reportedly went separate ways after agreeing on basics

It seems pretty safe to say that the upcoming new Toyota Supra will not simply be a rebadged BMW Z4, even if the Supra'shardware is largely sourced from BMW. In this case, calling the cars jointly developed might even be a bit of a stretch. Supra program assistant chief engineer Masayuki Kai has said that the Z4 and Supra development teams severed their ties in 2014 and started doing their own thing as soon as the cars' hard points were agreed upon. This differs greatly from the way Toyota and Subaru developed the 86 and BRZ coupes, for example.

According to an interview with CNET, Kai said that his development team hasn't discussed the cars with anyone from BMW in four years. "We agreed on the packaging," Kai said at a Supra event in Madrid, "like where is the hip-point of the driver, what's the wheelbase, the width, where's the fuel tank, where's the A-pillar, this was around the middle of 2014. After that we completely separated our team. After that, no communication with each other." Not even Christmas cards?

Reportedly, Kai's team has little to no knowledge of the new Z4, apart from the platform. There are a host of shared components developed for both cars, but to the Toyota team, it's not that clear how many of those will actually have been used in the finished Z4. Kai didn't disclose if he has personally driven the BMW sibling. The BMW B58 engine began series production in 2015, so by mid-2014 it could have been ready to be handed over to Toyota engineers in a crate labeled "Use This for Supra, This Side Up."

If it can be believed, the entire detached-development story reads like it's simply a positive thing. Instead of just shaping the BMW-related car with a Toyota design language, yet having everything under the skin act identically, Toyota has been able to take the agreed-upon hardware and work it into the direction it sees as the best fit for a car called a Toyota Supra. Masayuki Kai underlined that suspension tuning, throttle response and shifting action have been given as much a Toyota feel as possible — and as seen during our test drive with a prototype G20 3-series, which will share the BMW straight-six engine used the Supra, steering weight and suspension settings can be software adjusted to such a great extent even on the fly that it can feel like a different car for different drivers.

But of course, only a side-by-side comparison will really reveal the differences between the Supra and the Z4.

https://www.autoblog.com/2018/09/21/toyota-supra-bmw-z4-teams-cut-ties/

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[Kaahari]

 

[HKz]

sounds a little bit of fluff and marketing (and probably not the most accurate translation)... The majority of the mules we've seen from the past couple years were most likely driven by BMW employees so I'm not sure how that is really "no communication".

also kinda contradictory from some of what we've heard from interviews of Tada-san and A70's rumors as I thought there were claims that Toyota had a small hand in further developing the Z4 itself.

 

[A70TTR]

Nothing against his accomplishments, but yeah, Masayuki-san has already said several things that are more or less BS. I'm not sure if someone is coaching him or what the deal is, but as said, some of his statements even contradict Tada's interviews.

I'll leave it at that.

 

[Jdmuscle]

I don’t believe that bullshyt. Prototypes were always seen together over the years. Stupid remark if they didn’t talk to BmW folks since 2014.

 

[johnny_10196]

Maybe they were just referring to the design team and somehow that got lost into translation?

 

[2JZ-No-Sh*t]

Typical click-bait media. They take only one or two sentence and twist it for their POV to write a whole article on.

 

[Spilner]

I don’t believe that bullshyt. Prototypes were always seen together over the years. Stupid remark if they didn’t talk to BmW folks since 2014.

maybe they just got together for big events

 

[upnsmoke]

Considering BMW evaluation group tests the car it's easy to assume there are communications...

But mainly between the Chief Engineers.


This is normal


Engineers to engineers from different companies especially Japanese and German will rarely communicate with each other. Japanese engineers usually will require English speakers to have some sort of Japanese language skills or a translator which is very common in Japanese companies.


They communicate but through the heads only... CE to CE... BMW evaluation group looks like are the responsible department in testing do perhaps Toyota engineers visiting the site or receiving reports. They will also have a prototype or two in their own Toyota city race track... As this is normal. But since the car is manufactured in Germany/Austria and having German supplying the parts... It is logical to have them test over there... But there is communication for sure.

 

[Captain_Kirk]

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/la-motor-show-2018/why-bmw-z4-and-toyota-supra-look-so-different

Why the BMW Z4 and Toyota Supra look so different
BMW's design boss explains how to make contrasting sports cars from one platform

It’s no secret that the new BMW Z4 and Toyota Supra share their platforms and mechanical bits. Even before we’ve seen the Supra shorn of disguise, though, it’s very clear they’re going to be very different looking cars. BMW design boss Adrian Van Hooydonk told Top Gear at the LA Auto Show that the two cars were designed almost entirely separately.

“It was a very, very easy collaboration in terms of design,” Hooydonk told us. “First of all, Toyota came to us because they respect BMW’s work in terms of dynamics and sporty cars. Akio Toyoda himself loves driving and when he first visited us he brought a crash helmet as he wanted to take our product out on the test track. Which he did!

“Then I met the design chief of Toyota. He’s Japanese and I’m Dutch, but we immediately understood each other in terms of what we want from our engineers, and in proportions. That was one conversation, that’s all it took. We immediately agreed on the hard points and what we want in terms of proportions. And they were also what the engineers needed in terms of performance.

“The design teams then went their separate ways and I never saw what they did until we were finished. We had a meeting at the end where we shared with one another what we’d done, on the same wheelbase and mechanicals.”

He acknowledges it’s easy to spot the car’s visuals were designed separately. “They look very different. Our design languages are still intact; we didn’t have to make a compromise and neither did they. We each have a strong idea about how we want to develop our brand, and Toyota’s is different from BMW’s. The cars fulfil slightly different roles for each of us.”

Hooydonk is also as delighted as we are that the Z4 has returned to a lighter, less complex soft-top roof. “I like a soft top better,” he says. “It’s actually a technology that’s good enough to drive all year round, so I don’t see a disadvantage.

“We have a bit more trunk space so it’s slightly easier to work with than a retractable hard-top, and once it’s closed you don’t have these shut-lines from all the different parts. As a designer, shut-lines are something you want to see as little of as possible.”

Consider us properly informed on the Z4’s design, then. Now all we need is to see the finished Supra. January can’t come soon enough, huh?

 

[upnsmoke]

yeah this is normal, as Chief Engineers do the talking with each other and NOT the engineers themselves

The Supra is being made on the SAME line as the Z4.... Toyota Engineers will be travelling to the factory during pilot builds and would have seen BMW production engineers and maybe even design engineers depending if they have an activity over there.

Of course the cars looks different, styling was done by different studios, Toyota most likely used their internal stylers... BMW theirs... but under the shell, the parts are the same, wiring, reinforcement panels, brackets, bushes, engine components etc.

Since development/design engineers know future projects... confidential projects.... they are NOT encouraged to chat with each other

 

[AsupramkvC]

yeah this is normal, as Chief Engineers do the talking with each other and NOT the engineers themselves

The Supra is being made on the SAME line as the Z4.... Toyota Engineers will be travelling to the factory during pilot builds and would have seen BMW production engineers and maybe even design engineers depending if they have an activity over there.

Of course the cars looks different, styling was done by different studios, Toyota most likely used their internal stylers... BMW theirs... but under the shell, the parts are the same, wiring, reinforcement panels, brackets, bushes, engine components etc.

Since development/design engineers know future projects... confidential projects.... they are NOT encouraged to chat with each other

With BMW wirings and electronics, as well as electricals, will the Toyota Supra have the true reliability of a Toyota? Based on spy shots, Toyota set the Supra’s peak rpm at “7”. I think it’s for the engine not to go over the limit too much, could be a strategy for reliability purposes.

 

[Bryster]

I can't put a picture so I'll just facepalm

 

[vb22]

https://jalopnik.com/here-s-where-toyota-and-bmw-parted-ways-on-the-new-supr-1831780403

Here’s Where Toyota and BMW Parted Ways on the New Supra

By now everyone knows that the new 2020 Toyota Supra was more than just co-developed with BMW—it’s pretty much entirely a BMW inside and under its sheetmetal. That’s readily apparent when you’re greeted with an iDrive screen as soon as you step inside. But it and the 2019 BMW Z4 are said to be different cars, and ones that will drive differently from one another. So where did BMW end and Toyota begin on the new Supra?

See, you may remember a few months ago when we, among other outlets, featured a widely circulated report that Toyota and BMW hadn’t actually talked to one another in years during the two cars’ development phase. It’s possible, but how did that explain all those spy photos, including recent ones, where the two cars were seen testing together in camouflage?
To try and clear things up, I spoke to Ben Haushalter at the Detroit Auto Show. He’s the senior manager of product planning for Toyota’s sports cars, making him a Supra expert of sorts. And as someone who’s been working on this car for years now—remember, it’s been in the works since at least 2012—he started off by saying how happy he was to see it finally and officially see the light of day.

“It’s like my kid’s birthday,” Haushalter told me. “I took three photos of the empty stages last night, like this is gonna be the crib my kid sleeps in.”

He’s right that the return of the Supra was long-awaited, and even after a steady stream of leaks, we didn’t know all its full specs until the auto show debut yesterday. In the end the official numbers were this: a 3.0-liter turbo inline-six, 335 horsepower, 365 lb-ft of torque, zero to 60 mph in 4.1 seconds and a curb weight of 3,397 pounds. (Haushalter wouldn’t talk about which four-cylinder engine was coming to America, or how potential overlap between that car and the 86 would work, quite yet.)

Why the power difference though? Is something different mechanically, or is it just a tune? “I don’t know,” he said. “We don’t know a lot about what BMW’s done with their engine since we’ve broken off and started doing our own thing.”Both cars are built by contract manufacturer Magna Steyr in Austria, too, hence the Supra’s VIN starting with a W. But BMW’s Z4, in U.S. spec, is 382 HP. I asked Haushalter why that is but the answer wasn’t very clear.

“We look at, how does the car work together,” he said. “What is the chassis balance, what is the powertrain for that, and where we landed on that—335 provides us with the best combination of vehicle power and acceleration to the weight and chassis.” It’s a balanced amount for its size and weight, in other words.
This is Toyota’s second joint sports car development in recent years, following the partnership with Subaru that yielded the BRZ and 86. That car was pretty much all Subaru under the skin as well—a 2.0-liter Subaru boxer four and a platform adapted from the Impreza. The Supra took a similar path by being a BMW in pretty much every way that matters. Both cars had the same chief engineer too, Toyota’s Tetsuya Tada.

Such partnerships are increasingly common as the sports car market dwindles globally, and as automakers look to still make them while cutting down on development costs. Mazda and Fiat have done something similar with the new Miata and 124 Spider, although the latter at least has its own unique engine.

In Toyota’s case, executives have said BMW was the ideal partner for the Supra because it wanted to keep the inline-six as the engine, like every previous Supra has had. Since Toyota no longer makes its own straight six, the automaker had to go out and find one.

This leads to the question of where the two brands diverged in development.

“The fundamental platform development was jointly, together,” Haushalter said. “We decided, what does the track width need to be, what does the wheelbase need to be, to give us the best balance of sports car handling and overall packaging.”

After that, he said, “Then we broke away when it came to styling the car. We did all of that. All the wind tunnel testing, all the clay modeling was done on the Toyota side. Obviously they’re providing the powertrain and transmission to us, but the final tuning was all done by Toyota in Japan.”

So why then did we see the test mules hanging out together?

“For some aspects—cold weather testing, hot weather testing—it made sense to do the cars at the same time,” Haushalter said. “They’re sharing things like air conditioning componentry and cooling systems. When you’re spending a lot of money putting cars on the road to do that kind of stuff, testing them together makes sense.”
As for how it compares to the Z4, Haushalter said he couldn’t compare the two, as he hasn’t driven BMW’s roadster yet. But he did comment on how the Supra compares to its intended target—the Porsche 718 Cayman and Boxster.

“I think it stacks up really, really well against those cars,” he said. “Cayman has been the premium sports car handling benchmark for a long time. When we set out to develop a world class sports car, that’s where our target was. I think once people start driving the car and see where its capabilities are, we’ll run neck-and-neck with that car.”

At the very least it should be cheaper. The Cayman technically starts around $55,000, but with Porsche’s infamous options most of them are much more expensive than that. The ones we’ve tested at Jalopnik have generally run from about $80,000 to almost $100,000. A loaded Supra should go for under $60,000.

So will the tuners embrace the new Supra as they did the last one? A huge part of the A80 Supra’s appeal was the tough iron-block twin-turbo 2JZ engine, capable of withstanding immense heat and pressure during modifications for wild horsepower gains. I personally have no doubt that tuners will try truly wild stuff with the new Supra—after all, there’s plenty of parts and tunes available for the new BMW M3, and a lot can be done with any modern turbo car—but it remains to be seen if BMW’s motor can put down crazy power and still be reliable.

For his part, Haushalter said he hopes tuners embrace his new Supra.

“The tuner culture on Supra is probably one of the most iconic in the industry,” he said. “I really hope the tuner culture will start developing new stuff for it. I really look forward to seeing what they’re going to do.”

 

[Guff]

Jesus man, there's so much incorrect stuff in this article. I don't understand how Jalopnik continues to write article after article without bothering to fact-check.

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