Reviews are in for 2020 Supra MKV preproduction car

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mrarm

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In other words you're a total unicorn that Toyota's marketing department will know represents about .01% of their potential market for this car. Not a percentage that is going to drive Toyota's design and engineering decisions. The rest of us want performance (to differing levels) AND reliability out of the box.
I also want reliability.
I also want performance.
But coming from a country or having performance costs very expensive. I prefer a powerful engine flange even at 100hp 200N.m. if it can avoid me to pay 12k € for stupid tax.
As half of the people who buy the vehicle I will not let it go.
I do not care about the spec show that are there to meet stupid polution standards if i know that the engine and the hunt is made for 500ch and 600N.m i buy, if not buy the old one.
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Jdmuscle

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JDMuscle, remember a time when Toyota made badass cars because they could and didn't care about sales (like Lexus did with the LFA)??? Good time indeed:

r_t_1998_3.jpg


Interesting thing I found out from a Supra owner not long ago....the MKIV's pre-production cars used for magazine reviews back in the day actually produced more HP than the production cars. I don't get what Toyota did then with their pre-production cars that they felt made no sense to do now???
Nice article.. thanks for bringing that up.

1) Toyota was honest about having a sporty image back then. Today they just want to pose.. not actually be a sporty company. We can just have someone else build the car and pay half the price for it. No one cares if it’s really not a Toyota. Just slap a name on it and call it a day.
2) today’s car is not built by Toyota and BMW calls the shots. Why would they turn up the volume and let Toyota have the lime light.
 

DevonK

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I also want reliability.
I also want performance.
But coming from a country or having performance costs very expensive. I prefer a powerful engine flange even at 100hp 200N.m. if it can avoid me to pay 12k € for stupid tax.
As half of the people who buy the vehicle I will not let it go.
I do not care about the spec show that are there to meet stupid polution standards if i know that the engine and the hunt is made for 500ch and 600N.m i buy, if not buy the old one.
Well I can certainly see the logic of your argument given your tax situation and skill set. Hope it meets your needs.
 

justbake

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That's what a guarantee. :popcorn:
I'm never go to a car dealerships to repair my car I do it myself. :headbang:
That was a different mindset on the mk4 where the car was made popular for modding because of it's stout drive train years after the car was released.

Buying a new car with untested components and voiding the warranty right away sounds like a nightmare.
 

Modal170

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At 45k to 50k range (4cyl spec Zupra) we have the following...

1) 2019 Mustang GT with 460hp and a 10spd auto that can go sub 4 seconds 0-60. Add performance pack 2 and it’ll shame anything BMW has built for Toyota.
2) 2018 Camaro SS 1LE with 455hp and an amazing handling pkg. Sorry.. I don’t see this level of performance from the BMW built Toyota either (basing it on the driving reviews)
3) 2019 Nissan 370Z at 45k with 350hp in the Nismo trim. Oldest of the bunch.. so let’s see how Nissan counters.
Then you have a host of other non direct competitors such as Q50 Redsport, new genesis 3 series fighter with a proper manual gearbox to name a few.
Mind if I add that while those cars are ridiculous with performance and price ratio, they are coming off platforms that are far cheaper and can simply tack on these upgrades after waiting a few years for more R&D money to kick in?

Mustang starts at 26k

Camaro starts at 25k

370Z starts at 29.9k.

If these cars didn't exist already, I would imagine we would be singing a different tune.

Key part though, the fact these cars exist should at the very least make Toyota be aware what's out there for the consumers who want a "true" performance car. With a manual

You're sort of contradicting yourself here... I really doubt whether there are enough potential buyers out there who value the Supra legacy enough for Toyota to "cash in" on it in any significant way. Sure there will be some ADM'ing by dealers in the first few months the car is out, but that will take care of the "must-have-a-Supra" folks willing to pay a premium pretty quickly. As you say in the second part of your post, if Toyota builds a Supra premium into the MSRP itself, their sales will suffer badly as they will be betting on a legacy/brand appeal that doesn't really exist for the large majority of the market.
Tada wanted the car to be affordable and this ties into what Performance originally asked what that meant. I'm sure the first buyers will come and go and then the market will adjust. Tada wanted the car to be 54k at one point max. Before that, a Toyota rep said around mid 40k as it has to be within reach. If they do have a better car than the base Cayman at 50-55k, I think it'll sell, but after a year, it'll be a battle for, Supra VS 400Z Vs Corvette and that's a whole different topic that will happen come 2019.. Let's hope Toyota does what Porsche did with the 991.1 and the 991.2 where they give it a nice refresh with more boost without charging more for it to keep the R&D kicking and keep the money flowing.
 

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I also want reliability.
I also want performance.
But coming from a country or having performance costs very expensive. I prefer a powerful engine flange even at 100hp 200N.m. if it can avoid me to pay 12k € for stupid tax.
As half of the people who buy the vehicle I will not let it go.
I do not care about the spec show that are there to meet stupid polution standards if i know that the engine and the hunt is made for 500ch and 600N.m i buy, if not buy the old one.
I respect your post and for your situation that makes sense.

However for those that are in the US like myself, that way of thinking doesn’t make sense for our market.

Here, car mfgs are still producing 500, 600, 700, 900 hp cars from the factory under warranty no problem with very little tax penalty. So emissions is no excuse and if anything is a plus since restrictions here currently are about as lax as they’ll ever be.

We want the power to match our markets competition, especially if we are paying a premium.
 

DevonK

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If after testing the auto press is nearly unanimous in praising the production car's handling as equal to or even better than the Cayman's and the Alpine's, Toyota just might get away with charging the same price as a base Cayman despite not having a manual available - but that is a very big if, even Tada acknowledged that being limited to a front-engined design his team was a bit crippled off the starting line.
 

Jdmuscle

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Mind if I add that while those cars are ridiculous with performance and price ratio, they are coming off platforms that are far cheaper and can simply tack on these upgrades after waiting a few years for more R&D money to kick in?

Mustang starts at 26k

Camaro starts at 25k

370Z starts at 29.9k.

If these cars didn't exist already, I would imagine we would be singing a different tune.

Key part though, the fact these cars exist should at the very least make Toyota be aware what's out there for the consumers who want a "true" performance car. With a manual



Tada wanted the car to be affordable and this ties into what Performance originally asked what that meant. I'm sure the first buyers will come and go and then the market will adjust. Tada wanted the car to be 54k at one point max. Before that, a Toyota rep said around mid 40k as it has to be within reach. If they do have a better car than the base Cayman at 50-55k, I think it'll sell, but after a year, it'll be a battle for, Supra VS 400Z Vs Corvette and that's a whole different topic that will happen come 2019.. Let's hope Toyota does what Porsche did with the 991.1 and the 991.2 where they give it a nice refresh with more boost without charging more for it to keep the R&D kicking and keep the money flowing.
Well.. Toyota could’ve easily remastered the FRS chassis and made it handle more power and use a different motor. They didn’t have to go order a car from BMW for the sake of an inline 6. Toyota never traditionally ups the ante in terms of power with any of their models during mid cycle. Remind if I’m forgetting. I don’t see Toyota keeping up with anyone or the market ... example..

1) full size SUV.. sequoia in the US so old and out dated.
2) full size 1/2 pickup.. Tundra is so old and out dated in a highly lucrative market. Tundra came out in 06 as an 07 and hasn’t been updated besides a skin level update in 14.
3) technology.. finally this week they are set to announce Android Auto in some models for next year. Come on.. Toyota is way way way behind everything in terms of tech, performance, electrification etc.

Why are they successful? Reliability and simple to use cars that have tried old tech.

Once cocky Cadillac was forced to reinvent it self after the japs gave it to them in the late 80s. That’s the type of Toyota I’m looking for.. not the one at BMW’s doorstep waiting for a standard issue B58 and a chassis for its sports car.
 

Modal170

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Well.. Toyota could’ve easily remastered the FRS chassis and made it handle more power and use a different motor. They didn’t have to go order a car from BMW for the sake of an inline 6. Toyota never traditionally ups the ante in terms of power with any of their models during mid cycle. Remind if I’m forgetting. I don’t see Toyota keeping up with anyone or the market ... example..

1) full size SUV.. sequoia in the US so old and out dated.
2) full size 1/2 pickup.. Tundra is so old and out dated in a highly lucrative market. Tundra came out in 06 as an 07 and hasn’t been updated besides a skin level update in 14.
3) technology.. finally this week they are set to announce Android Auto in some models for next year. Come on.. Toyota is way way way behind everything in terms of tech, performance, electrification etc.

Why are they successful? Reliability and simple to use cars that have tried old tech.

Once cocky Cadillac was forced to reinvent it self after the japs gave it to them in the late 80s. That’s the type of Toyota I’m looking for.. not the one at BMW’s doorstep waiting for a standard issue B58 and a chassis for its sports car.
In my line of work, which is more less working with big name companies, the bigger the net worth, the less they take risks and handle things internally so they don't outsource to other companies because $$$. There has to be a business case where it's easier to not use their own money because it won't sell, IE, the Supra.

Toyota appears to be limiting the potential risks financially and for reliability sakes. They didn't integrate Apple carplay until earlier this year or late last year because they didn't want the tech to be stealing information of the consumers or anything related to Toyota's internal hardware. Once they did their investigation, they are throwing it in there and removing their personal service. Same story with Android auto.

The way I see Toyota, they want to occupy every piece of the market by not necessarily beating everyone into the ground, but by having a car for every need and keeping up with the rest at that price point or at a cheaper cost. While I would love the 86 to be upgraded, it's been 6 years going on 7 and little has been changed. Old habits are hard to kill I guess.

More likely the new 86 will be occupying the 35k spot and a new MR2/Celica takes the 20k spot so we'll get the power, but lose the price.
 

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I respect your post and for your situation that makes sense.

However for those that are in the US like myself, that way of thinking doesn’t make sense for our market.

Here, car mfgs are still producing 500, 600, 700, 900 hp cars from the factory under warranty no problem with very little tax penalty. So emissions is no excuse and if anything is a plus since restrictions here currently are about as lax as they’ll ever be.

We want the power to match our markets competition, especially if we are paying a premium.
I respect your post and for your situation that makes sense.

However for those that are in the US like myself, that way of thinking doesn’t make sense for our market.

Here, car mfgs are still producing 500, 600, 700, 900 hp cars from the factory under warranty no problem with very little tax penalty. So emissions is no excuse and if anything is a plus since restrictions here currently are about as lax as they’ll ever be.

We want the power to match our markets competition, especially if we are paying a premium.
yes pity I'm not in the usa :nono:
:hmm: with your rules I would already be preparing a 2jz at the moment to put it in the new supra 4 cylinders.
 

Jdmuscle

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In my line of work, which is more less working with big name companies, the bigger the net worth, the less they take risks and handle things internally so they don't outsource to other companies because $$$. There has to be a business case where it's easier to not use their own money because it won't sell, IE, the Supra.

Toyota appears to be limiting the potential risks financially and for reliability sakes. They didn't integrate Apple carplay until earlier this year or late last year because they didn't want the tech to be stealing information of the consumers or anything related to Toyota's internal hardware. Once they did their investigation, they are throwing it in there and removing their personal service. Same story with Android auto.

The way I see Toyota, they want to occupy every piece of the market by not necessarily beating everyone into the ground, but by having a car for every need and keeping up with the rest at that price point or at a cheaper cost. While I would love the 86 to be upgraded, it's been 6 years going on 7 and little has been changed. Old habits are hard to kill I guess.

More likely the new 86 will be occupying the 35k spot and a new MR2/Celica takes the 20k spot so we'll get the power, but lose the price.
Business cases can we tweaked, manipulated etc in any way to meet the needs of the higher ups. Then there is something called doing the right thing...

For example.. I’ll take you to mid 1960. Lee Iococa lobbied for the Ford Mustang.. there wasn’t a market for it.. there wasn’t any proper study that the American public would like a pony car. Guess what Ford took the plunge.. they are still making that car and in fact that’s the only car they’ll be retaining. I don’t think Toyota would ever build a car similar to that of a Mustang.. neither do they have the balls too, but.. if you want to compete and say.. we are sporty as well.. mean it. Half hearted attempts as such only leaves a bad taste with the consumers.

To top it off.. new article says. Toyota looking for a new partner to build another entry sports car. If Toyota built it and gave the other company a model out of it.. I’d understand. But it’s the other company that does all the work and then Toyota simply does some tweaks and slaps their name on it is what that’s frustrating.
 

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Business cases can we tweaked, manipulated etc in any way to meet the needs of the higher ups. Then there is something called doing the right thing...

For example.. I’ll take you to mid 1960. Lee Iococa lobbied for the Ford Mustang.. there wasn’t a market for it.. there wasn’t any proper study that the American public would like a pony car. Guess what Ford took the plunge.. they are still making that car and in fact that’s the only car they’ll be retaining. I don’t think Toyota would ever build a car similar to that of a Mustang.. neither do they have the balls too, but.. if you want to compete and say.. we are sporty as well.. mean it. Half hearted attempts as such only leaves a bad taste with the consumers.

To top it off.. new article says. Toyota looking for a new partner to build another entry sports car. If Toyota built it and gave the other company a model out of it.. I’d understand. But it’s the other company that does all the work and then Toyota simply does some tweaks and slaps their name on it is what that’s frustrating.
I'm a Toyota fan, but I doubt they will do the right thing ever since they expanded and taken a huge hold of the world since the 2000's after achieving their goal as the number one volume dealer and brand in the world. Well, maybe not so much the last claim, but the biggest selling company to the masses. Enthusiasts, be damned. Car's going to be cool, but I'm going to hold off writing the Supra as a flop because of the collab, which we do know and not the specs, of which we don't know.

I think Toyota has the balls to do it, but again, money. In his interview on club 4Ag, he said Toyota could make a 100k or even 300k car because money isn't an issue but if it's being sold for consumers, they have to compromise or make it affordable if they expect a return. They can stick that V6 from the TS050 in a new car and profit but won't cause there's no immediate need.

Toyota would much rather take a car after having undergone R&D by the other team, then proof read the work under their terms and request modification and tell the other brand to go back to work. In this instance, they spend little, they get a car to market and improve brand viewership while ensuring the car they have is quality.. Toyota's just a conservative company and most likely will always be. Lexus is the one you should keep an eye on if they are going to have fun come the new decade.

Lexus is the one i'm curious about and we'll likely see more fun things if the LC 500 is anything. We went from LFA, to LC, and probably trickling down to the LS and RC soon.
 

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Lexus is the one i'm curious about and we'll likely see more fun things if the LC 500 is anything. We went from LFA, to LC, and probably trickling down to the LS and RC soon.
Id rather have the motor in the LS500 than the one in the LC500,

Nevertheless, hopefully they put the V35a in more cars to bring more fun/interesting cars to the brand
 

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Business cases can we tweaked, manipulated etc in any way to meet the needs of the higher ups. Then there is something called doing the right thing...

For example.. I’ll take you to mid 1960. Lee Iococa lobbied for the Ford Mustang.. there wasn’t a market for it.. there wasn’t any proper study that the American public would like a pony car. Guess what Ford took the plunge.. they are still making that car and in fact that’s the only car they’ll be retaining. I don’t think Toyota would ever build a car similar to that of a Mustang.. neither do they have the balls too, but.. if you want to compete and say.. we are sporty as well.. mean it. Half hearted attempts as such only leaves a bad taste with the consumers.

To top it off.. new article says. Toyota looking for a new partner to build another entry sports car. If Toyota built it and gave the other company a model out of it.. I’d understand. But it’s the other company that does all the work and then Toyota simply does some tweaks and slaps their name on it is what that’s frustrating.
Yep. Toyota is a conservative type company...they are the old farts that watch their 401k prices rise slowly and steadily. Ford, GM, Chrysler, etc... are risk takers. They are the young whippersnappers that watch their 401k prices rise and fall 50% daily. Truth be told, the exciting companies are the ones that take risks...that risk is what brought back the big three.
 

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