Shoulda just used the V35A-FTS from the LS500

Discussion in 'B48 4-Cyl Engine, Exhaust, Drivetrain, Bolt-Ons' started by halfmonkey, Jan 16, 2019.

  1. halfmonkey

    halfmonkey Active Member

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    With all of the flak that Toyota is getting for using the B58 and BMW interior and to add insult to injury, the Supra won't even be built in Japan, I'm wondering if they should have just used the V6 from the LC500. I know it's not an in-line 6 but they're getting flak for using the bmw engine and they'll get flak for using a v6. At least if they used the V6, it would be their own engine plus the v6 puts out 416 hp and 442lb-ft of torque. Even if they detuned it a little, I'm sure people would forgive them. I mean this BMW engine with 335hp is supposedly getting 0-60 in 4.1 secs. If they used the V6 from the LS500 and even detuned to 380hp with still a bunch of torque, I think it would do better than 4.1 seconds. Plus, you would at least get the Toyota/Lexus reliability whereas that is up in the air right now with the B58 and I think people would quickly forgive it being a v6. Well maybe not quickly but in time. I mean look at the F150 and Raptor. Used to rely on big old V-8 now a V-6 turbo is in there and it puts out really strong hp and so people forgot about the v8. If you think in-line 6 Supra purists are tough to sway, I'd say the F-150 v-8 purists are the hardest to sway and they've accepted the v-6 turbo in their truck so I think if the numbers had come in right, the v-6 tt from the LS500 would have been a better option at this point.

    I thought when Toyota announced they were doing the Supra as a joint project with BMW, I thought they were developing an engine together. It seems they just bought the engine from BMW along with the transmission and interior. Then from there, they developed the car on their own.
     
  2. justbake

    justbake Well-Known Member

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    The v35a would have been my preference but toyota thought not having an inline would be a deal breaker. But they also did that survey years before the v35a when they only had NA v6 and NA v8 options

    Nonetheless, who is to say Toyota didn't have a hand in the modular B architecture since mass producing parts and cost cutting is what Toyota does best
     
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  3. OP
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    halfmonkey

    halfmonkey Active Member

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    I'd like to think that Toyota might have had a hand in developing the B58 but I really don't think that is the case as they currently don't have any recent in-line 6 engines to draw from so they wouldn't have much insightful input whereas BMW has been designing in-line 6's forever and a half. Plus the B58 will be going into all of their cars soon as that is what BMW does with their in-line 6's so I'll bet that this was at least 90% BMW designed and engineered with Toyota adding very minimal input that didn't affect the overall design and engineering of the engine. My guess is Toyota just spent the money and bought the drivetrain and interior from BMW and in turn BMW probably got some of the Toyota's hybrid/battery tech or maybe some of the purchasing power in supply and parts for other things.

    I remember reading where they said that not having an in-line 6 would have been a deal breaker with the research they did but it seems that having a BMW in-line 6 is turning out to be the same deal breaker for many. Should have just kept it all Toyota.

    Another thought would be if Toyota/Lexus is doing what Mercedes is doing and is going modular on their 4 and 6 cylinders. Mercedes is bringing back their in-line 6 because it's easier to design, development, and manufacture an in-line 6 that shares it's basic architecture with a 4 cylinder than to make a 4 cylinder and then separate v-6's for their other cars. Maybe Toyota/Lexus could have adopted this strategy and used the Supra to kick off the implementation. I mean they spent enough time bringing the Supra to market that I think they could have done it. Oh well. Hindsight is 20/20.
     
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  4. justbake

    justbake Well-Known Member

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    I understand Toyota doesn't have an inline 6 but its not like Toyota is absent minded of how they work and things that can be tweaked to improve the. The new timing chain is a good example of this (mind you, this is an example so I am not saying Toyota made this change) in how the new timing chain design is vastly less complex than the old one. You don't have to be an expert on purely inline 6's to improve the design

    The B family is 3,4, and 6 cylinders and debuted in 2015, 3 years after their partnership began.
     
  5. Modal170

    Modal170 Well-Known Member

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    Listen bucko, either you get a Supra, or you don't, because no matter what they did, they would get flak for it not being under 30k, not having 1000HP from factory and not used.

    People would find a reason to complain so they can keep their 90's nostalgia pristine and not accept the stark reality of pricing, sales, R&D time and the dwindling market for the sports car segment.
     
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  6. MT6

    MT6 Active Member

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    Yes, they should have used the V6-TT in a new Supra. But remember, these cars were developed by BMW, not Toyota. BMW would never put a Lexus engine in their Z4/Supra.
     
  7. mas921

    mas921 Well-Known Member

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    Focus groups insisted on the inline 6; case closed.
     
  8. OP
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    halfmonkey

    halfmonkey Active Member

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    What I'm saying is that they shouldn't have co-developed the Z4 and Supra together and instead Toyota should have developed the Supra all in house and used the Lexus v-6tt and detuned it for Supra duty. This way, the Supra would have at least been designed and developed by Toyota/GR since being co-developed with BMW is leaving such a sour taste in people's mouth.
     
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  9. twntrbo03'

    twntrbo03' Well-Known Member

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    Correct, but they also thought it was going to be a TOYOTA motor and not a BMW. I guarantee if these same focus groups were told it was a BMW I6, their tune would change! I also bet that 90% of people complaining would be happy with a V6 sourced toyota motor instead of the current motor
     
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  10. justbake

    justbake Well-Known Member

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    Youre about 7 years too late on that one
     
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  11. Kaizen

    Kaizen Well-Known Member

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    I'm not a fan of V6s. They sound ugly (except for maybe the VG and VQ engines imo). I have the RC 350 and although the engine note is decent, it wont ever sound good as any straight 6. The unique factor of the straight 6 will be a rare thing 10-20 years from now. Sound is important when your talking Supra. I'm hoping the B58 turns out reliable because of Toyota's hand in the project.
     
  12. A70TTR

    A70TTR Well-Known Member

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    lol, they all sound pretty bad...

    IMO, the best V6 sound atm are the current 3.5L 2GR platforms.
     
  13. MT6

    MT6 Active Member

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    LMAO. Let me ask you something:

    When did Toyota/BMW announce their partnership? Before or after Toyota claimed their "focus groups" insist on a inline 6?

    It's exactly the same story with the manual transmission. Long after BMW decided there will be no manual transmission on this platform, Toyota claimed that a M/T is not a big requirement for their focus group. :lol:

    What a coincidence.
     
  14. kona61

    kona61 Well-Known Member

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    I am actually quite happy. The B58 is a closed deck inline six with a forged bottom end. It is such a tough block that they do not make any changes between it and the diesel. Similarly, this engine is shared between a ton of cars. This means future support and parts availability will be very high. One of the biggest issues with the old Supra is that it is nearly impossible to find all the parts for it. For instance the V160 trans.

    I also am happy as we can actually tune the B58. The Lexus engine would likely take years to crack and many more to actually get viable aftermarket support. The B58 already has numerous parts, and we already know tons about the general design and what we can improve on to make big power.
     
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  15. McWicked

    McWicked Well-Known Member

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    Toyota could have easily whittled down the Lexus 'New N' platform, slapped on some FT-1 design cues and left us with a high-wasted chunky V6 coupe and said "There you go boys..." Obviously that would remove the "re-badged BMW" criticisms but would do nothing to mitigate the spittle-flinging cries of "THAT'S NOT A SUPRA!!!"
     
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