A90 Toyota Supra vs G29 BMW Z4 Drag Race, Rolling Race & Brake Test

vb22

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I think someone sign up just too troll. :p
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Captain_Kirk

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Are we reading the same thread? That was like 3 people. The rest are making excuses because its a heavier roadster vs a lighter coupe and wait for the US Z4 vs the US Supra.
If that's the case, lets wait for US Supra with the B58D. :D
 

gymratter

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Yeah, but overall he has a better track record than Scott26. I'm still waiting on that carbon fiber tub chassis. :lol:
i believe he works in the marketing department for BMW, so i take his post with a grain of salt.
 

s219

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I want what you're smoking. How in the hell can you sit there and say another manufacturer (BMW) is going to dictate an ECU tune on another brands (Toyota) car. No way in hell did BMW set the tune for it. Toyota would have done extensive testing and tuned it exactly how they wanted with the available ECU giving to them. I don't get why this "BMW tuned their ECU" is your hill you're trying to die on. It doesn't make any sense.
I don't think I ever said BMW dictated anything to Toyota. I am pretty sure I said BMW coded it to Toyota's specs, which is still my understanding.

In the early years the two companies were off doing their own thing, in fact at one point Toyota had a proof of concept vehicle cobbled together from a BMW 2-series that they used to see whether they could make a Toyota out of it in terms of performance and feel. That was all independent of BMW, and it's what was used to green light the project at the corporate level.

At that point they got back with BMW, agreed on the fundamentals of the packaging and design, and then the companies parted ways again for years, independently working on styling and packaging. They came back together to work out some final integration details and differences before final designs were locked in. Once they started building actual Z4 and Supra test mules, they did their own testing and tuning, and Toyota diverged quite a bit on the suspension. On powertrain there was more collaboration, out of necessity, due to the huge amounts of challenges (certifications, emissions, etc) faced in getting engines to market and the fact that they were starting from an existing engine design of BMW's.

Differences in the Supra's B58 engine and tune are minor when you consider the whole field of B58 variants out there. BMW tunes this engine many different ways, for different applications. They might emphasize lower torque production for one model, mid-range power for another, and so on. The large amount of B58 variants already out in the world cover a very wide and diverse performance map. If anyone thinks Toyota's B58 is dramatically different, to me it means they don't understand the already huge range of B58 applications.

By the way, I think someone said if tuners can change the engine and tune the ECU easily, why wouldn't Toyota have done this all by themselves? Well, tuners don't have to meet emissions requirements or certifications, they don't have to worry about warranty, materials, durability, manufacturing, and so on. A tuner doesn't have to collaborate with the engine developer. Out of necessity, Toyota and BMW had to collaborate on this. The fact that the B58 is an existing BMW engine and BMW builds the Supra's variant meant they had to collaborate.

Suspension is a different story, and it was of no consequence for Toyota to tune it to get the feel they wanted. As long as the differences were in bolt on parts it wouldn't be a big deal one way or another. Even within BMW's lineup it's common to see dramatically different suspension tunes when different teams control their model variant.

I get that people here really want to talk about the Toyota DNA in the car, but you just can't ignore the large amount of BMW genetics that preceded this project and made it possible for Toyota to inject some DNA. I can't believe we're arguing about engine software as some sort of ownership proof for Toyota on an engine like the B58 which already has a huge range of internal BMW tunes for a wide range of vehicles. Put it in perspective. Unique traits in the Supra's B58 are peanuts compared to the variations across the existing B58 family.
 

F1 Silver Arrows

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I don't think I ever said BMW dictated anything to Toyota. I am pretty sure I said BMW coded it to Toyota's specs, which is still my understanding.

In the early years the two companies were off doing their own thing, in fact at one point Toyota had a proof of concept vehicle cobbled together from a BMW 2-series that they used to see whether they could make a Toyota out of it in terms of performance and feel. That was all independent of BMW, and it's what was used to green light the project at the corporate level.

At that point they got back with BMW, agreed on the fundamentals of the packaging and design, and then the companies parted ways again for years, independently working on styling and packaging. They came back together to work out some final integration details and differences before final designs were locked in. Once they started building actual Z4 and Supra test mules, they did their own testing and tuning, and Toyota diverged quite a bit on the suspension. On powertrain there was more collaboration, out of necessity, due to the huge amounts of challenges (certifications, emissions, etc) faced in getting engines to market and the fact that they were starting from an existing engine design of BMW's.

Differences in the Supra's B58 engine and tune are minor when you consider the whole field of B58 variants out there. BMW tunes this engine many different ways, for different applications. They might emphasize lower torque production for one model, mid-range power for another, and so on. The large amount of B58 variants already out in the world cover a very wide and diverse performance map. If anyone thinks Toyota's B58 is dramatically different, to me it means they don't understand the already huge range of B58 applications.

By the way, I think someone said if tuners can change the engine and tune the ECU easily, why wouldn't Toyota have done this all by themselves? Well, tuners don't have to meet emissions requirements or certifications, they don't have to worry about warranty, materials, durability, manufacturing, and so on. A tuner doesn't have to collaborate with the engine developer. Out of necessity, Toyota and BMW had to collaborate on this. The fact that the B58 is an existing BMW engine and BMW builds the Supra's variant meant they had to collaborate.

Suspension is a different story, and it was of no consequence for Toyota to tune it to get the feel they wanted. As long as the differences were in bolt on parts it wouldn't be a big deal one way or another. Even within BMW's lineup it's common to see dramatically different suspension tunes when different teams control their model variant.

I get that people here really want to talk about the Toyota DNA in the car, but you just can't ignore the large amount of BMW genetics that preceded this project and made it possible for Toyota to inject some DNA. I can't believe we're arguing about engine software as some sort of ownership proof for Toyota on an engine like the B58 which already has a huge range of internal BMW tunes for a wide range of vehicles. Put it in perspective. Unique traits in the Supra's B58 are peanuts compared to the variations across the existing B58 family.
I don't think there's a single person denying the BMW DNA whatsoever. But what we're arguing is that Toyota did major work as well (hence co-development). Which is not what BMW and some idiots like Harris or other dumb brits are saying. Those posh fgts stance is that it is 100% BMW which is COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY FALSE. IT WAS CODEVELOPED. There is an assload of Toyota DNA here as it has been said by the majority of unbiased reviewers (fuck dumb bitches like Chris Harris).

Toyota had a huge involvement in this car's engine design, transmission logic, ECU tuning, platform design and much, much more. Yes, the actual hard materials are BMW, but a lot of the engineering design and intelligence were all Toyota and BMW. If that wasn't the case, then BMW would have gone on to set their own layout for the Z4 platform and have Toyota phone it in, but that isn't the case here. They both went forward with the hard points of the car, and then they split ways. Both cars are eons apart in terms of differences. This needs to be clear.

But all in all, I'll reiterate, I don't think anyone here really cares about the BMW DNA. Without BMW (or Toyota), we wouldn't get two great cars from two manufacturers.
 

imoj1

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if you ever really own MK4 supra, and you lived with it for long years, you will quickly notice the sound tone of mk5, there is a pitch of the old Supra from the way it screams, this pitch sound not available in any BMW, surely Toyota intend to do it, and Tada-san said it himself in TFL interview that they have toned their own sound and its one of the points they are proud of.
this is simple point proof that they have their own development of the CAR regardless of the BMW hardware
 

Saeedali78

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People completely forget the amount of times Toyota sent materials to BMW to further enhance the quality as it wasn’t up to par with Toyota’s standards.
Both companies played a major part, as well as both cars are tuned differently.
 

s219

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People completely forget the amount of times Toyota sent materials to BMW to further enhance the quality as it wasn’t up to par with Toyota’s standards.
I can see how people forgot, that is a serious stretch of imagination right there.
 
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Saeedali78

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I can see how people forgot, that is a serious stretch of imagination right there.
I would love to insult you back, but I’m afraid I won’t do as well as nature did.
:offtopic:

Please refer back to the interviews with Tada-San and maybe you’ll understand the part both companies have played in this build.
 

s219

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Every part on the car has a BMW stamp and BMW part number. All the interior switchgear, components, and seats are BMW. The software is BMW. And on top of that, the Z4 interior is more posh, the Z4 has a newer iDrive version, and some of the Z4's exterior details are more upscale. There is zero evidence that Toyota had to send materials to BMW because BMW's stuff wasn't good enough. That is the type of delusional thinking among one side of the Supra crowd that is just way out of whack with reality. Everyone is just grasping at straws looking for Toyota validation.

Me, I feel like I'm getting a world class BMW sports car at Toyota prices. Other than the styling and excellent suspension tune, nothing else on the car is really unique to Toyota.
 

justbake

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Every part on the car has a BMW stamp and BMW part number. All the interior switchgear, components, and seats are BMW. The software is BMW. And on top of that, the Z4 interior is more posh, the Z4 has a newer iDrive version, and some of the Z4's exterior details are more upscale. There is zero evidence that Toyota had to send materials to BMW because BMW's stuff wasn't good enough. That is the type of delusional thinking among one side of the Supra crowd that is just way out of whack with reality. Everyone is just grasping at straws looking for Toyota validation.

Me, I feel like I'm getting a world class BMW sports car at Toyota prices. Other than the styling and excellent suspension tune, nothing else on the car is really unique to Toyota.
Stamps are irrelevant in this conversation, of course it will have a BMW stamp regardless. This is why the J160 that Toyota used in Altezza had a Subaru stamp on it when it was put in the twins, it was still a Toyota part regardless. I’m not saying there are Toyota parts on the car with BMW stamps, I’m saying a stamp doesn’t prove that Toyota never reliability tested it.
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