Why I Think Everyone is Wrong About the MKV (Video)

A70TTR

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2017
Threads
8
Messages
2,727
Reaction score
10,052
Location
Japan/EU/USA
Car(s)
ST205 GT4, JZA70, JZA70 TT-R, S210 Athlete
it's incorrect information.

Joel Luz of TRD USA and ToySport fame confirmed the 2JZ was entirely modified and refined by Toyota in house.

All they did is bump the blocks deck height for the longer rods and they took the Yamaha head design from the 1J and opened it up to flow more for the larger displacement. Despite that, Yamaha did not do any development on the 2J.
Sponsored

 

Stroked84

Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2016
Threads
0
Messages
13
Reaction score
16
Location
Fort Myers Florida
Car(s)
2015 GT
When I heard Toyota was seriously considering reviving the Supra name the first selfish thought I had was, “please don’t let it be a GTR competitor in the $100,000 and up club.” Followed immediately by “please let it be powered by another over-engineered Toyota motor.” Sadly only one of those things will come true.

I appreciate people who judge more spherically and try to be objective.
Allow me though to explain why i disagree at a very high extend with this view.

For automakers, the most challenging part today is survival. The final decisions for strategies (unfortunately) are not made by sportscar enthusiast usually but by accountants, lawyers and investors seeking revenue. The economic crisis and other factors brought up the need for cost cuts. Most impacted sector was the sports segment.
A common phenomenon today is joint development of shared platforms. That for me is acceptable to a certain level for mass production models like saloons, SUVs, to cut costs. Or even sportscars. But note this!
The GT86 was an epic dissappointment (although younger audiences who haven't lived the golden JDM decade of the 1990's-2000 dont consider the fact that Toyota's most iconic Initial D, drift machine, the "86" has a Subaru flat-4 NA engine. UNACCEPTABLE.... Even for cost cuts, there are so many 4-cylinder powertrains in Toyota/Lexus arsenal that with little tuning you easily have a high-revving 200hp engine. (that could also be used in other Toyota / GR models). This of course doesn't mean the GT86 is not a good car. But they should have the opportunity to distinguish the powertrains between Toyota and Subaru. They killed the 86 soul...
A halo car, a flagship, a model with generations of history owes to have some red lines not to be crossed. The Supra, could have used the Lexus LC coupe chassis. With a 3.0L twin turbo engine , much less luxury and 2/3 of the price. Not a BMW Z4 chassis.... Facts talk.... Now they realised it and are running paniced to change that by adding performance and more sporty characteristics... They tried to merge two cars with totally different philosophies.
I don't expect the new Supra to be a 1000hp monster. But at least stand up to the history and its name.To be a performer GT coupe. Twin turbo 6-cylinder FR layout. And that should have been made 5-6 years ago. The FT1 concept meets this expectations. But the production car, i am not sure..
Look at the NISSAN GT-R. Carlos Ghosn made the near bankrupt NISSAN to the No1 selling automaker in few years. The GT-R played a major role in that. Not so much on its own sales as acting as "halo car". A dedicated development. Using some elements from previous generations of the legendary Skyline GT-R. Do you think it would stand a chance having the same success if it had an under-powered engine and a shared chassis with Mercedes SL?
Or if it had two variations , one of which with a totally different 4-cylinder engine? NEVER....
Look at the 350Z as a successor of the Z32 300ZX. Total dissapoinment. Underpowered, lazy, was a step backwards.... The last years they improved that through nismo especially but still the signs of the wrong path are visible. This is why now its being heard that they will use the Infiniti Q60 coupe platform with the VR30DETT and make a new Z.
History has shown examples of both succesfull and failures joint developments.
The Supra must keep the heritage and be a worthy successor. I prefer to believe that there will be one version (instead of two versions with different engines) even if back in the MKIV there were the SZ and RZ versions. Today a single global version is the correct choice. Even based on the shared chassis with the BMW Z4, a Toyota 3l 6-cylinder twin turbo engine with 350-400hp, 6-speed DCT, RWD would be ideal under the given circuimstances. With a GRMN version later on with different GT-3 spec turbines, ECU, brakes, suspension and aero parts on 450+hp (similar to the GT-R roadmap and philosophy).

Mike Papas
I was going to highlight points you made here and comment on them individually, but I agree with every single word in the post so I'll just say... I agree wholeheartedly with this. Well said!
 

Haros

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2017
Threads
3
Messages
195
Reaction score
269
Location
Canada
Car(s)
Two feet
When I heard Toyota was seriously considering reviving the Supra name the first selfish thought I had was, “please don’t let it be a GTR competitor in the $100,000 and up club.” Followed immediately by “please let it be powered by another over-engineered Toyota motor.” Sadly only one of those things will come true.



I was going to highlight points you made here and comment on them individually, but I agree with every single word in the post so I'll just say... I agree wholeheartedly with this. Well said!
There is zero proof the Toyota supra will be using a BMW motor, it is only speculated and I strongly disagree as do other forums. This particular forums is hell bent on it using a BMW Power plant for whatever reason.

"Despite BMW having some awesome six-cylinder engines, it's being reported that the Supra will adopt a new twin-turbo 3.5-liter with some Bavarian technology"
 

BrettS

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2016
Threads
33
Messages
1,207
Reaction score
2,588
Location
Alberta
Car(s)
2011 gti
Vehicle Showcase
1
There is zero proof the Toyota supra will be using a BMW motor, it is only speculated and I strongly disagree as do other forums. This particular forums is hell bent on it using a BMW Power plant for whatever reason.

"Despite BMW having some awesome six-cylinder engines, it's being reported that the Supra will adopt a new twin-turbo 3.5-liter with some Bavarian technology"
Well considering our insider has said its coming with a modified bmw b58 engine, and he’s been spot on with all the info he’s given us.
 

Haros

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2017
Threads
3
Messages
195
Reaction score
269
Location
Canada
Car(s)
Two feet
Well considering our insider has said its coming with a modified bmw b58 engine, and he’s been spot on with all the info he’s given us.
Toyota is already been said to be developing an i6 well before the new supra was even know to exist to replace their aging Camry motors in the Lexus line up.
Motors are very rarely one-off and are instead shared across platforms, even previous supras which also used some Lexus motors.
Toyota is currently sitting around approximately 220 different motors and variants. Two-hundred twenty.
Toyota has produced motors for numerous other manufactures, even GM and Ford, meaning Toyota is largest engine manufacturer in the world.

It is entirely possible the supra can use a wholly BMW motor, but I doubt it. History says otherwise.

Logisticly that would also mean toyota dealerships would also carry BMW motor parts, supplies as well as warehouses for service and warranty. This would undermine any sort of cost savings as the network does not intersect with Toyota's as Toyota's has done with it's own partnerships purely based on supplier network size alone.

This also does not highlight the fact that Toyota is billions of dollars larger than BMW and it's partnership is for risk mitigation and technology sharing than it is because Toyota forgot how to build a motor, not to mention the same rumours that pin a BMW motor for the supra also state that it won't be the same motors for both platforms, which I see little point.

Again. There is nothing saying Toyota CAN'T use a BMW motor, but that would still not fill Toyota's current need for a new i6/v6 for the rest of their massive empire, and I see little reason why the would.
Maybe some low end variant will use a BMW motor, but I strongly feel Toyota is geared to have their own 6 cycl motor as they always have since world war 2.
 
OP
OP
Guff

Guff

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Sep 8, 2016
Threads
23
Messages
1,683
Reaction score
7,404
Location
USA
Car(s)
A80, A90, Mk1 Celica
Vehicle Showcase
1
Toyota is already been said to be developing an i6 well before the new supra was even know to exist to replace their aging Camry motors in the Lexus line up.
Motors are very rarely one-off and are instead shared across platforms, even previous supras which also used some Lexus motors.
Toyota is currently sitting around approximately 220 different motors and variants. Two-hundred twenty.
Toyota has produced motors for numerous other manufactures, even GM and Ford, meaning Toyota is largest engine manufacturer in the world.

It is entirely possible the supra can use a wholly BMW motor, but I doubt it. History says otherwise.

Logisticly that would also mean toyota dealerships would also carry BMW motor parts, supplies as well as warehouses for service and warranty. This would undermine any sort of cost savings as the network does not intersect with Toyota's as Toyota's has done with it's own partnerships purely based on supplier network size alone.

This also does not highlight the fact that Toyota is billions of dollars larger than BMW and it's partnership is for risk mitigation and technology sharing than it is because Toyota forgot how to build a motor, not to mention the same rumours that pin a BMW motor for the supra also state that it won't be the same motors for both platforms, which I see little point.

Again. There is nothing saying Toyota CAN'T use a BMW motor, but that would still not fill Toyota's current need for a new i6/v6 for the rest of their massive empire, and I see little reason why the would.
Maybe some low end variant will use a BMW motor, but I strongly feel Toyota is geared to have their own 6 cycl motor as they always have since world war 2.
8oXBdLG.gif


I don't think you're right, but I damn sure hope you're right.
 

HKz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2016
Threads
0
Messages
787
Reaction score
1,251
Location
Arizona
Car(s)
FRS
Toyota is already been said to be developing an i6 well before the new supra was even know to exist to replace their aging Camry motors in the Lexus line up.
Motors are very rarely one-off and are instead shared across platforms, even previous supras which also used some Lexus motors.
Toyota is currently sitting around approximately 220 different motors and variants. Two-hundred twenty.
Toyota has produced motors for numerous other manufactures, even GM and Ford, meaning Toyota is largest engine manufacturer in the world.

It is entirely possible the supra can use a wholly BMW motor, but I doubt it. History says otherwise.

Logisticly that would also mean toyota dealerships would also carry BMW motor parts, supplies as well as warehouses for service and warranty. This would undermine any sort of cost savings as the network does not intersect with Toyota's as Toyota's has done with it's own partnerships purely based on supplier network size alone.


This also does not highlight the fact that Toyota is billions of dollars larger than BMW and it's partnership is for risk mitigation and technology sharing than it is because Toyota forgot how to build a motor, not to mention the same rumours that pin a BMW motor for the supra also state that it won't be the same motors for both platforms, which I see little point.

Again. There is nothing saying Toyota CAN'T use a BMW motor, but that would still not fill Toyota's current need for a new i6/v6 for the rest of their massive empire, and I see little reason why the would.
Maybe some low end variant will use a BMW motor, but I strongly feel Toyota is geared to have their own 6 cycl motor as they always have since world war 2.
...if the bmw block/toyota d4s, what the insider claims, holds true then this point is moot, just look at how toyota & subaru handle fa20 issues.
 

PerformanceSound

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Threads
19
Messages
1,873
Reaction score
3,357
Location
USA
Car(s)
2020 Tundra TRD Pro, 1994 MKIV Supra TT
Vehicle Showcase
2
It would make much more sense for Toyota to use the LS500's twin turbo V6 not only because of the engineering work already accomplished with that motor.....but to maintain better quality control and response to issues. Ever notice when a TSB goes out for a Lexus model, it generally affects several other Lexus/Toyota cars?....they are able to find one solution to cover the spectrum rather than individually investigate and deploy a unique fix for each platform. Putting a BMW motor in a Toyota branded car would be crazy from a logistics standpoint....because then you would need to have specialized technicians at the dealership trained on that one unique motor. Where the existing motors (LS500's V6, 5.7 iForce, etc...) are already established with technicians trained and ready to support the platform.

I could be totally wrong on this, but like Haros said, from a logistics standpoint it would make zero sense for toyota to start supporting another brands parts because most of the industry falls below Toyota's logistics standards.
 

HKz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2016
Threads
0
Messages
787
Reaction score
1,251
Location
Arizona
Car(s)
FRS
It would make much more sense for Toyota to use the LS500's twin turbo V6 not only because of the engineering work already accomplished with that motor.....but to maintain better quality control and response to issues. Ever notice when a TSB goes out for a Lexus model, it generally affects several other Lexus/Toyota cars?....they are able to find one solution to cover the spectrum rather than individually investigate and deploy a unique fix for each platform. Putting a BMW motor in a Toyota branded car would be crazy from a logistics standpoint....because then you would need to have specialized technicians at the dealership trained on that one unique motor. Where the existing motors (LS500's V6, 5.7 iForce, etc...) are already established with technicians trained and ready to support the platform.

I could be totally wrong on this, but like Haros said, from a logistics standpoint it would make zero sense for toyota to start supporting another brands parts because most of the industry falls below Toyota's logistics standards.
..and you think Lexus building their new & exclusive TT V6 only to ship them to Austria makes more logistical sense? (not to mention the conflict of interest, don't think lexus would like their newest tech in a bmw chassis) As much as I wanted this to be a Toyota only project they aren't going out of their way to create this partnership only to bring in development from Lexus. The FA20 has turned out to be a quite reliable powerplant and the 86 was ranked #2 most reliable car this year so it isn't entirely farfetched to think toyota could do the same with bmw's parts..
 
Last edited:

A70TTR

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2017
Threads
8
Messages
2,727
Reaction score
10,052
Location
Japan/EU/USA
Car(s)
ST205 GT4, JZA70, JZA70 TT-R, S210 Athlete
I'd say the ZN6 project runs about as contrary as possible to what Haros said, not to mention the chief engineer is once again Tada-san.

I found it interesting how hardcore people are on the subject of the Toyota only motor (not that I would mind), so I did what I always do, I asked one of the junior engineers what he thought about that. at first, he didnt understand (my Japanese isn't perfect), but when he realized what I was asking he looked at me puzzled before saying, "no, this was never the plan."

so unless an engineer working on the car is unaware of a Toyota 6-cylinder being tested, rest assured the car does not have a toyota motor. well, unless you dont believe what I say, which is fine, but I'd venture you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

:shrug:
 

Supraman

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2014
Threads
3
Messages
542
Reaction score
772
Location
FL
Car(s)
.
Haros I agree and like what you've said. Since the start like most I am in hope this is a full Toyota engine. However, due to a lot info. we have been hearing about a BMW engine being borrowed etc. and A70TTR sharing a lot of what seems to match what we can see there's a big chance it may be a BMW sourced engine OR engine block with everything else Toyota (maybe). The fact that they are sharing their platform + Toyota's car still being tested by BMW drivers + coming out of BMW centers + inline 6 history + Subaru/Toyota 86 project; it all leads to make some sense that BMW has a good amount invested in this car which is why they are still running around with it.

Due to the recent reports saying Akio was not all too happy with the last car he tested, this could change everything for all we know. All we are seeing and know of is the car(s) BMW has been testing. What about the cars Toyota has been testing in Japan or wherever they are doing it? My wild theory is they are also testing the top spec BMW sourced engine & ONLY they (limited Toyota engineers) have access to another version 'the full blown out Toyota I6/V6 TT' which may be why most of the reports advising it will have the Lexus V6 TT or some sort of version are from the Asia region o_O

I really hope they make a documentary of how this car came to life once its all said and done. Kind of like the Lexus LFA + Nissan GTR.
 

Spilner

Banned
Banned
Banned
First Name
earl
Joined
Aug 17, 2017
Threads
1
Messages
1,234
Reaction score
1,228
Location
koreatown
Car(s)
none
Haros I agree and like what you've said. Since the start like most I am in hope this is a full Toyota engine. However, due to a lot info. we have been hearing about a BMW engine being borrowed etc. and A70TTR sharing a lot of what seems to match what we can see there's a big chance it may be a BMW sourced engine OR engine block with everything else Toyota (maybe). The fact that they are sharing their platform + Toyota's car still being tested by BMW drivers + coming out of BMW centers + inline 6 history + Subaru/Toyota 86 project; it all leads to make some sense that BMW has a good amount invested in this car which is why they are still running around with it.

Due to the recent reports saying Akio was not all too happy with the last car he tested, this could change everything for all we know. All we are seeing and know of is the car(s) BMW has been testing. What about the cars Toyota has been testing in Japan or wherever they are doing it? My wild theory is they are also testing the top spec BMW sourced engine & ONLY they (limited Toyota engineers) have access to another version 'the full blown out Toyota I6/V6 TT' which may be why most of the reports advising it will have the Lexus V6 TT or some sort of version are from the Asia region o_O

I really hope they make a documentary of how this car came to life once its all said and done. Kind of like the Lexus LFA + Nissan GTR.
Akio said she needed more edge
 

A70TTR

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2017
Threads
8
Messages
2,727
Reaction score
10,052
Location
Japan/EU/USA
Car(s)
ST205 GT4, JZA70, JZA70 TT-R, S210 Athlete
that is possible I suppose, however unlikely it may be, as I dont know the whole team and even the ones I do arent always available for my questions.

one thing that is likely however is that the B58 motor has more than just Toyota D4S. that's not to say it has a Toyota designed head or something, but it probably has more refinements than the FA20/4U does, unless it has a new co-developed parts which is another option. it could always be a new motor/variant based on the B58; that has not been ruled out...
 
OP
OP
Guff

Guff

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Sep 8, 2016
Threads
23
Messages
1,683
Reaction score
7,404
Location
USA
Car(s)
A80, A90, Mk1 Celica
Vehicle Showcase
1
that is possible I suppose, however unlikely it may be, as I dont know the whole team and even the ones I do arent always available for my questions.

one thing that is likely however is that the B58 motor has more than just Toyota D4S. that's not to say it has a Toyota designed head or something, but it probably has more refinements than the FA20/4U does, unless it has a new co-developed parts which is another option. it could always be a new motor/variant based on the B58; that has not been ruled out...
I think D4S in and of itself is radical enough of a change that we can call it a Toyota designed head as it will likely require changing the valve angle, port design, and manifold. I have a strong feeling that this motor will indeed get a new designation on the BMW side, and maybe even a JZ-FTS designation as well. :dunno:
 

A70TTR

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2017
Threads
8
Messages
2,727
Reaction score
10,052
Location
Japan/EU/USA
Car(s)
ST205 GT4, JZA70, JZA70 TT-R, S210 Athlete
this is true^

I was under the impression it was more of a retrofit or easy adaptation to make, but after looking into it a little more it appears it may be more of a ground up engineering exercise than I thought.
Sponsored

 
Last edited:
 




Top