Why I'm NOT Hyped About The New Toyota Supra

Half Vast

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2019
Threads
8
Messages
415
Reaction score
550
Location
Virginia
Car(s)
20 Supra, 01 Tundra Limited, 00 4Runner
Without a manual trans whats the point. I was going to let the whole B58 powerplant slide, but without a manual trans I really don't care about the car.
I’m actually happy about the auto. Can shift faster than I can and I can put it in any gear I want to just the same as a manual.
What is being offered in the A90 (and a few other cars from different makers) is basically a fly by wire system. Just what is a fly by wire system?

Wikipedia says, "Improved fully fly-by-wire systems interpret the pilot's control input as a desired outcome and calculates the control surface activities required to deliver that outcome; this results in different combinations of rudder, elevator, aileron, flaps and engine controls in different situations using a closed loop (feedback). The pilot may not be fully aware of all the control outputs needed to affect a command, only that the aircraft is acting as expected. The fly-by-wire computers continually act to stabilise the aircraft and adjust its flying characteristics without the pilot's input and to prevent the pilot operating outside of the aircraft's safe performance envelope".

It doesn't take much to substitute terms specific to a wheeled vehicle in the description above to maybe see one reason why a manual isn't presently offered.

just like Toyoda and Alonso both said, 'absolutely anyone can drive this car fast', because the car does all the real driving for you -- story of 99% of all new cars.
This exactly. If that's not fly by wire, I don't know what is.
 

HKz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2016
Threads
0
Messages
787
Reaction score
1,251
Location
Arizona
Car(s)
FRS
^ huh? are you really being an apologist here? you do realize ever since the turn of the millennium, virtually all sports cars utilize a drive by wire throttle/brake from the GT86/BRZ to the M2/4, it has no impact on developing a manual.. Having no manual is plain and simple a cop out and blatant cost cutting. Don't give me the "it is faster" routine, the Supra ain't faster than a Vette yet Chevy gives us the option to row our own gears. And what does shaving 1 or 2 seconds on the streets actually do? All these people who are happy about automatic trans must be the wannabe stoplight racer in their town.. Street driving is all about feel, screw paper specs.. Guess Toyota was so serious about making the Supra a true sports car they shortened the wheelbase, removed some practicality and the backseats and ultimately they gave consumers only an automatic...lol..
 

XtremeMaC

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2018
Threads
41
Messages
2,957
Reaction score
3,205
Location
_________ SE Michigan, USA
Car(s)
2020 Supra
For sure electronic control gives the ability to, well control many aspect of the vehicle. but too much automation and too much "well-engineering" vehicles takes the fun away. It's cool that i.e. 370Z has downshift rev matching system, but also takes away driver input... in the end you get a Play Station, like GTR, which can move around... it's cool if people want that. I too sometimes wish fully autonomous vehicles or the functionality to turn on/off was already there for heavy traffic and lazy moments, but a true sports car, or a weekender for some, shouldn't be fully-automated or fully strictly electronically controlled all the time, which is why modern sports car have somewhat of a "dial" to tune the amount of things like traction control, etc.. Quite honestly these Ring lap times, as nice as they are at showing full capability, also show that a 3 year old can drive as a pro driver... (exaggerating for sure!) is something I'm bothered with... and don't get me started with A/T drag racing...

Having said that, if the A/T is so good that it won't upshift automatically when you're high revving, drifting or whatever, or not limit your fun while driving in any way, then I can be persuaded to drive AT, which is why even though I'm hesitant, since I haven't really experienced the ZF 8HP yet and never personally bought an A/T vehicle for myself before, I'm still inclined to buy a Supra... Though I still wish it came in MT as well at launch...

Manuals also have or can have throttle position sensor among other things, yes maybe it can't up/down shift for you, but for decades M/Ts and obviously the tiptronic, semi-automatic when driven in manual mode has the warning light suggesting shifting.. or disengage AC clutch upon WOT. Only thing you can get is faster shifting and some fuel economy. Right now, I cannot think of any other benefits of AT from control perspective.. need to grab a bite perhaps :)
 

monkeytek

New Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2018
Threads
0
Messages
4
Reaction score
5
Location
usa
Car(s)
2013 SS GTR, 2018 WRX STI
^ huh? are you really being an apologist here? you do realize ever since the turn of the millennium, virtually all sports cars utilize a drive by wire throttle/brake from the GT86/BRZ to the M2/4, it has no impact on developing a manual.. Having no manual is plain and simple a cop out and blatant cost cutting. Don't give me the "it is faster" routine, the Supra ain't faster than a Vette yet Chevy gives us the option to row our own gears. And what does shaving 1 or 2 seconds on the streets actually do? All these people who are happy about automatic trans must be the wannabe stoplight racer in their town.. Street driving is all about feel, screw paper specs.. Guess Toyota was so serious about making the Supra a true sports car they shortened the wheelbase, removed some practicality and the backseats and ultimately they gave consumers only an automatic...lol..
Chevy used to, the new C8 will be very much in the same boat as the MKV. It's inevitable, manuals will be gone except in small boutique vehicles. Shortly after that with electrification ICE will start its slow sunset. Grab what you can while you can and be happy. Every year we make up a smaller segment, the auto manufacturers don't just decide to stop offering technologies its all hand in hand with where the bulk of the automotive market is moving.
 

SupraFiend

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2017
Threads
1
Messages
574
Reaction score
850
Location
Vancouver
Car(s)
5 Supras currently
What are you guys going on about? This car does not drive itself, its not AWD and it doesn't have electronic trickery that turns you into an ace driver. Every generation of Supra has been offered with a traditional automatic transmission, this one just doesn't offer a manual (yes huge mistake, one they will likely correct in a year or so). The magneto shocks are here to allow stiffer dampening when at the track or cornering hard, and a more compliant ride when not. It has modern drive by wire, stability, traction control and ABS, like every other car on the market (and the 98-02 mk4 jdm supra), but I believe you can turn it all off at the track. The only thing on it that could be considered a drivers aid is the e diff which can vary how hard the diff locks on accel and decel, which is probably more there to make the car more consistent then to transform you into Mario Andretti. Toyota has actually been pretty good for not going down the electronic wizardy route like Nissan did with the GTR. Note how the LFA ended up vs say the new NSX and the GTR.

Mechanically this car is identical to a 1989 Nissan 240sx with a turbo i6, an e diff and magneto shocks, plus all the standard tech any other new car has.
 

HKz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2016
Threads
0
Messages
787
Reaction score
1,251
Location
Arizona
Car(s)
FRS
Chevy used to, the new C8 will be very much in the same boat as the MKV. It's inevitable, manuals will be gone except in small boutique vehicles. Shortly after that with electrification ICE will start its slow sunset. Grab what you can while you can and be happy. Every year we make up a smaller segment, the auto manufacturers don't just decide to stop offering technologies its all hand in hand with where the bulk of the automotive market is moving.
Even if C8 is automatic only, it is by far more excusable for Chevy considering it is mid engined and has much more HP & torque whereas the Supra is being marketed for the driving experience just like the 86 twins... Plus, I still have a very difficult time believing the C8 will be priced anywhere near a C7 and so I can't really justify comparing the Supra with it..

Electrification ain't ever going to touch mainstream sports cars when hybrids are barely making its way to hypercars.. Out of all car companies, Toyota is really the only one that could totally afford to throw enthusiasts a bone just like they did with the 86 so this is all just apologist speak.. Plus, some markets are relaxing their regulations so arguably there will be a time where commuters with EVs/hybrids will offset what the enthusiasts consume so the future doesn't have to be as bleak as people may want to think... Meanwhile, Toyota is spending money on developing the GR SS hypercar.. Yea, hypercars must be where the market is moving towards.
 

RyanGT3RS

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2018
Threads
1
Messages
215
Reaction score
558
Location
USA
Car(s)
Red 991.2 GT3RS, M and AMG,s
What are you guys going on about? This car does not drive itself, its not AWD and it doesn't have electronic trickery that turns you into an ace driver. Every generation of Supra has been offered with a traditional automatic transmission, this one just doesn't offer a manual (yes huge mistake, one they will likely correct in a year or so). The magneto shocks are here to allow stiffer dampening when at the track or cornering hard, and a more compliant ride when not. It has modern drive by wire, stability, traction control and ABS, like every other car on the market (and the 98-02 mk4 jdm supra), but I believe you can turn it all off at the track. The only thing on it that could be considered a drivers aid is the e diff which can vary how hard the diff locks on accel and decel, which is probably more there to make the car more consistent then to transform you into Mario Andretti. Toyota has actually been pretty good for not going down the electronic wizardy route like Nissan did with the GTR. Note how the LFA ended up vs say the new NSX and the GTR.

Mechanically this car is identical to a 1989 Nissan 240sx with a turbo i6, an e diff and magneto shocks, plus all the standard tech any other new car has.

You think anyone in this thread will turn down an LFA or a mcLaren 720S cause those don’t come in manual? Lol
 

tonyng92

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2019
Threads
18
Messages
207
Reaction score
304
Location
Richmond Va
Car(s)
E93 M3 F82 M4
Vehicle Showcase
1
Here’s some food for thought. The Supra was built in partnership with Bmw. What came out of it was the b58 engine. Now, bmw have the history of releasing their non “M” engines first before releasing an upgrade version. Currently the b58 “M” version is in the new x3/x4 M, called the s58. What I see is, once the new m3/m4 goes into production, you will see the s58 in the Supra as a special edition(SE) with the same manual transmission as the M cars and twin turbos. The end.
 

white_turbo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2018
Threads
1
Messages
110
Reaction score
119
Location
08807
Website
www.instagram.com
Car(s)
2009 Nissan GTR/2006 Mitsubishi Evo/2020 Toyota Supra (maybe?)
Vehicle Showcase
1
Mechanically this car is identical to a 1989 Nissan 240sx with a turbo i6, an e diff and magneto shocks, plus all the standard tech any other new car has.
LOL...I sure hope not for a $50K car.
 

white_turbo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2018
Threads
1
Messages
110
Reaction score
119
Location
08807
Website
www.instagram.com
Car(s)
2009 Nissan GTR/2006 Mitsubishi Evo/2020 Toyota Supra (maybe?)
Vehicle Showcase
1
It's funny how a lot of people say technology makes cars uninteresting and make people look like better drivers than they are, yet you haven't driven any of these cars at speed in a proper environment. All these technologies do is to make the car faster than ones that don't have the technology by optimizing how the components work with each other. Guess what, you still need to drive the car. And here is the BIG BUT, if you are a shitty driver, these technologies won't help you because you are a shitty driver and having a more analog car doesn't mean you are a less shitty driver either. It goes both ways. :thumbsup:
 

KahnBB6

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2018
Threads
24
Messages
1,225
Reaction score
1,726
Location
Florida
Car(s)
'93 Lexus SC300 2JZGTE R154 LSD & 2023 GR86 6MT
So, after months after the cars reveal, (knowing it is auto only so far) you finally decided on not buying it since it doesn’t have a manual? Mmm, Ok.... lol
I think he just meant that like any of us who have been very interested to hear Toyota respond in the absolutely affirmative with a model trim to meet the demand that has always been there for a three-pedal manual transmission MKV Supra... not a manual Camry family car but a manual Supra $50k halo high performance sportscar icon... he has been holding out and has basically thrown up his hands at this point because he actually wants THIS car.... just with a manual transmission.

However if the OP is in the market ballpark of $50k-$70k or so or higher he has several other competitor sportscar options that currently do offer a manual. Or... he's got plenty to buy a USDM MKIV TT in good condition. I do sympathize with the OP's frustration but I also can not imagine the MKV will never have a manual transmission since the proper parts already exist and the R&D for it has already been done (according to Tetsuya Tada anyway).
 

KahnBB6

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2018
Threads
24
Messages
1,225
Reaction score
1,726
Location
Florida
Car(s)
'93 Lexus SC300 2JZGTE R154 LSD & 2023 GR86 6MT
Chevy used to, the new C8 will be very much in the same boat as the MKV. It's inevitable, manuals will be gone except in small boutique vehicles. Shortly after that with electrification ICE will start its slow sunset. Grab what you can while you can and be happy. Every year we make up a smaller segment, the auto manufacturers don't just decide to stop offering technologies its all hand in hand with where the bulk of the automotive market is moving.

This surfaced a few months back. There is no manual transmission offered on the C8 Corvette but it looks like GM very much has the technology to offer a manual transmission if they want to.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-ca...re-patent-stick-shift-c8-corvette-mid-engine/


Further, Bosch filed this patent back in 2013 which achieves a similar function:

https://www.autonews.com/article/20...h-clutch-by-wire-prevents-stalling-boosts-mpg


Until we completely abandon internal combustion engines we actually DO have the technology to continue to offer manuals. It's a question of will this technology be used.

I agree that there is at the end of the day a window for internal combustion with a manual but technologically it seems like the only true road block will be when the ICE no longer drives the wheels themselves.

And while I would only expect a loony boutique car company to offer them as such or hobbyists to continue using them as such, there is such a thing as an electric car that uses a manual transmission. This is much to the chagrin of anyone who values absolute efficiency and lack of complexity overall but depending on the use case for it.... who cares if a manual continues to be the least sane and least efficient option? It's a manual in a car no matter what it's powered by. Interactive and fun to drive.

But I completely agree with you that the market is eventually going to shrink and become the space for fairly well off folks at one end of the spectrum and DIY hobbyists at the other end.

But right now in 2019 we haven't come to that yet so what manuals are offered the folks who love and demand them should find and buy.

Anyone can buy any kind of vehicle with an automatic or no gearbox at all any time they want to.
 

KahnBB6

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2018
Threads
24
Messages
1,225
Reaction score
1,726
Location
Florida
Car(s)
'93 Lexus SC300 2JZGTE R154 LSD & 2023 GR86 6MT
Is this upon release or are you referring to later down the track? please quote your source.
https://www.caradvice.com.au/717116/toyota-supra-manual-demand/

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-sh...oyota-supra-manual-transmission-future-plans/

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/a24787267/2019-bmw-z4-stick-shift-rumor/

It has been months of these trickle-detail interviews. These are only three of them that touched on the note that R&D for a manual MKV had already been done throughout the development process and that at least one manual Z4 variant is already set to be released after the first model year. Since these cars share R&D it isn't much of a jump to offer the same on the Supra.

There is one more interview with Tada that I have read where he very briefly acknowledges that he has driven a Supra prototype with a manual. "Yes, of course..." is the only quote I can remember from it. He did not say which engine spec it was and the interviewer moved on after his short response.

Don't get your hopes up though because that was about the only nugget and compared to the rest of the few quips from him and his team over the last few months it's really nothing we haven't already heard or known about already.

That being said other than the above I know as much as you do. But I still would find it very hard to believe that Toyota would not release a manual Supra once their initial sales come in to secure the model's initial success. Despite what Toyota has been saying officially, they know people really want it.
Sponsored

 
 




Top