Why I'm NOT Hyped About The New Toyota Supra

[LEG1T]

Not to offend anybody here, but IMO the folks who are saying they'd be happy paying $55k for a ~335 horsepower Supra don't come across as real buyers.

Again, not to single anyone out, but the general theme I get from people (in this thread and others, on this forum and elsewhere) who like to talk about how horsepower isn't important, driver feel and all of that, power-to-weight etc., is of someone who is a sportscar enthusiast, may or may not be a sportscar owner, and doesn't actually plan to buy one of these new, but maybe wouldn't mind perhaps picking one up used for half price one day, possibly 5-10 years out. Or they're journalists who write about the car but again aren't going to buy one.

Sort of like how all the internet commenters and magazine writers say they want a stickshift, but buyers don't actually buy them.

The market demands that a sportscar be fast, and that means it have some horsepower. Only a few manufacturers can get away with underpowered but expensive sportscars, e.g. Lotus, Alfa 4c, etc., and they sell in very small numbers. The ones that sell in any substantial figure (Cayman, M2) have a more exciting badge attached, and again still don't sell a ton of units.

There will always be a handful to prove me wrong, but I just don't see how they will sell many cars at this price point. FT1 was simply incredible, a hugely exciting prospect, but this is just ho-hum.

Considering all of us except a small number of insiders are basing our opinion on speculative hypotheticals I think its fair to say at this point in-time its far too early to draw any conclusions. To call the car Ho-hum is very premature, and enthusiast would agrue that so far from the render the car is actually pretty close to concept. Closer than many would have thought even with the cladding on. Visually this car certainly looks close to what was promised atleast as far as we can tell.

Performance on the other hand, yes I think the car needs more aswell, but we don't know the facts so we can't just jump to conclusions. Let Toyota play there hand before we just call there bluff. 8 Days...

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[Jeff Lange]

I agree that this can be and has been done, but what would they be shipping from Japan for this project? The door skins? All the main mechanical components are nearly a lock from BMW, no rumors or insiders have said otherwise.

While I would tend to agree with you, Toyota does have suppliers and manufacturing facilities in Europe, so it wouldn't need to be shipped from Japan in order to have Toyota parts installed.

For what it's worth, there are multiple Toyota models built and sold in Europe that have BMW engines installed in them (Auris, RAV4, Avensis, etc.). For BMW to build the car with a Toyota engine, seems easily possible, especially if that engine was built at a European Toyota engine plant. That said, based on their current engine manufacturing in Europe, for a smaller-scale production, it seems more likely the engine would just be shipped from Japan.

I would expect all sheet metal and many of the body and drivetrain components to be sourced from BMW suppliers, but Toyota has enough manufacturing in the area to provide components if needed.

 

[HKz]

Not to offend anybody here, but IMO the folks who are saying they'd be happy paying $55k for a ~335 horsepower Supra don't come across as real buyers.

Again, not to single anyone out, but the general theme I get from people (in this thread and others, on this forum and elsewhere) who like to talk about how horsepower isn't important, driver feel and all of that, power-to-weight etc., is of someone who is a sportscar enthusiast, may or may not be a sportscar owner, and doesn't actually plan to buy one of these new, but maybe wouldn't mind perhaps picking one up used for half price one day, possibly 5-10 years out. Or they're journalists who write about the car but again aren't going to buy one.

Sort of like how all the internet commenters and magazine writers say they want a stickshift, but buyers don't actually buy them.

The market demands that a sportscar be fast, and that means it have some horsepower. Only a few manufacturers can get away with underpowered but expensive sportscars, e.g. Lotus, Alfa 4c, etc., and they sell in very small numbers. The ones that sell in any substantial figure (Cayman, M2) have a more exciting badge attached, and again still don't sell a ton of units.

There will always be a handful to prove me wrong, but I just don't see how they will sell many cars at this price point. FT1 was simply incredible, a hugely exciting prospect, but this is just ho-hum.

I'm giving it a chance. If it weighs near the 86, 335 will be plenty even at that price figure..and remember this is just the HP, I imagine torque to weight ratio should be huge. Having no stick will be a huge let down, yes, but I can still accept it as long as the trans doesn't auto upshift and blips quickly, don't really care if it is between DCT and TC...I still think a stick will be coming specifically for the 6 cyl. Regardless, if we can trust the numbers, which I don't think we should be acknowledging too heavily, having a 0-60 time under 4 secs is quite competitive.

While I would tend to agree with you, Toyota does have suppliers and manufacturing facilities in Europe, so it wouldn't need to be shipped from Japan in order to have Toyota parts installed.

For what it's worth, there are multiple Toyota models built and sold in Europe that have BMW engines installed in them (Auris, RAV4, Avensis, etc.). For BMW to build the car with a Toyota engine, seems easily possible, especially if that engine was built at a European Toyota engine plant. That said, based on their current engine manufacturing in Europe, for a smaller-scale production, it seems more likely the engine would just be shipped from Japan.

I would expect all sheet metal and many of the body and drivetrain components to be sourced from BMW suppliers, but Toyota has enough manufacturing in the area to provide components if needed.

sure but they are merely BMW diesels that are in the Toyota models after all and I get Toyota has plenty of manufacturing in Europe...but I don't think their suppliers are setup to build a sports car there

 

[Guff]

Not to offend anybody here, but IMO the folks who are saying they'd be happy paying $55k for a ~335 horsepower Supra don't come across as real buyers.

Again, not to single anyone out, but the general theme I get from people (in this thread and others, on this forum and elsewhere) who like to talk about how horsepower isn't important, driver feel and all of that, power-to-weight etc., is of someone who is a sportscar enthusiast, may or may not be a sportscar owner, and doesn't actually plan to buy one of these new, but maybe wouldn't mind perhaps picking one up used for half price one day, possibly 5-10 years out. Or they're journalists who write about the car but again aren't going to buy one.

Sort of like how all the internet commenters and magazine writers say they want a stickshift, but buyers don't actually buy them.

The market demands that a sportscar be fast, and that means it have some horsepower. Only a few manufacturers can get away with underpowered but expensive sportscars, e.g. Lotus, Alfa 4c, etc., and they sell in very small numbers. The ones that sell in any substantial figure (Cayman, M2) have a more exciting badge attached, and again still don't sell a ton of units.

There will always be a handful to prove me wrong, but I just don't see how they will sell many cars at this price point. FT1 was simply incredible, a hugely exciting prospect, but this is just ho-hum.

You're certainly right about people not putting money where their mouths are. Just remember what happened with the 86, Toyota came out with a light, simple, drivers car, when enthusiasts were tired of heavy, complicated cars. It was received with open arms, second coming, blah blah blah. Then people got tired of it, said it needed more power to really sell properly.

If in a years time, the Supra is a fantastic drivers vehicle with more power than an 86, literally what enthusiasts and journalists have begged for, they will receive it with open arms, call it the second coming, blah blah blah. Then after a couple years, they will find the next fatal flaw and say, "Gee if only it came with xxxx, maybe we would have bought it".

And on top of that, Toyota's bosses want to see more $$$ return than the 86 got them, in a car that had inherently been expensive to design and produce, even with cost sharing with BMW. Creating something lightweight and driver oriented is inherently going to involve more complex manufacturing and more expensive materials.

Then, Toyota's bean counters clearly won't let their engineers make better, faster, second generations, this much is painfully obvious with the 86, because they need to see the cash flow to justify it.

So that leaves us with another aging sports car, that is very good in its own right, with only passable sales figures, waiting to be refreshed, or more likely, killed off.

The problem is though, what's the alternative? They can sacrifice the enthusiasts dream and go GT, with more power, and more $$$, but then the enthusiasts will angrily shout and point at the RC and LC and say, "You already make this luxo-garbage, what about us?" And journalists will review it and say, "It's nice, sure, but too bad it wasn't the fast drivers car that the 86 should/could have been". And Toyota ends up with a "safer" car that fits better in this market, but doesn't make enough of a splash to really make sales.

It's a conundrum really. I don't know which approach would benefit Toyota more in the long term, but I'm sure they spent years trying to figure it out. And while I am of the "drivers car" camp, I would rather Toyota make whatever is most beneficial for them in terms of marketability, so they can continue making fun cars in the future. I just have to assume that they've thought the same thing and put serious consideration into it, and are making the decision that makes the most sense in the long term.

 

[HKz]

consumers, specifically enthusiasts, are definitely the trickiest crowd to appease..

..but it does bring up a big point, very few Japanese sports cars have truly resonated with people outside of Japan. Sadly nothing has ever matched the success the D3 have had with their pony cars + corvette despite the JDM legends being objectively just as good or even better...

 

[tisdrew]

I would loved to see more powerful and track ready version to the 86/BRZ that could meet in the middle with regards to pricing. I had a BRZ and it was just awesome. However the lack of support/model offerings from Subaru and Toyota left me wanting more. You can tack on lip kits and change the wheel color all you want but I wanted more performance.

So I decided to get something else.

Same here, I knew a handful of people who bought an 86 when new but we were all disappointed (I had one too) and we all sold within 2 years of owning, except one guy because he's got a monster 240sx to keep him happy. The cars everyone upgraded to? Infiniti rs, BMW, STI. All heavier, turbocharged cars with 300+ hp.

At least BMW fans will prove they are not car enthusiast but badge whores. The Supra will be a pure BMW with a Toyota badge.

Allegedly, Toyota will be changing out the cyl head on the b58. But overall your point is true, lots of people are in it for the badge but I think you might be surprised how many enthusiasts do drive BMWs but can't afford the M cars.

 

[Lexusisf]

You're certainly right about people not putting money where their mouths are. Just remember what happened with the 86, Toyota came out with a light, simple, drivers car, when enthusiasts were tired of heavy, complicated cars. It was received with open arms, second coming, blah blah blah. Then people got tired of it, said it needed more power to really sell properly.

If in a years time, the Supra is a fantastic drivers vehicle with more power than an 86, literally what enthusiasts and journalists have begged for, they will receive it with open arms, call it the second coming, blah blah blah. Then after a couple years, they will find the next fatal flaw and say, "Gee if only it came with xxxx, maybe we would have bought it".

And on top of that, Toyota's bosses want to see more $$$ return than the 86 got them, in a car that had inherently been expensive to design and produce, even with cost sharing with BMW. Creating something lightweight and driver oriented is inherently going to involve more complex manufacturing and more expensive materials.

Then, Toyota's bean counters clearly won't let their engineers make better, faster, second generations, this much is painfully obvious with the 86, because they need to see the cash flow to justify it.

So that leaves us with another aging sports car, that is very good in its own right, with only passable sales figures, waiting to be refreshed, or more likely, killed off.

The problem is though, what's the alternative? They can sacrifice the enthusiasts dream and go GT, with more power, and more $$$, but then the enthusiasts will angrily shout and point at the RC and LC and say, "You already make this luxo-garbage, what about us?" And journalists will review it and say, "It's nice, sure, but too bad it wasn't the fast drivers car that the 86 should/could have been". And Toyota ends up with a "safer" car that fits better in this market, but doesn't make enough of a splash to really make sales.

It's a conundrum really. I don't know which approach would benefit Toyota more in the long term, but I'm sure they spent years trying to figure it out. And while I am of the "drivers car" camp, I would rather Toyota make whatever is most beneficial for them in terms of marketability, so they can continue making fun cars in the future. I just have to assume that they've thought the same thing and put serious consideration into it, and are making the decision that makes the most sense in the long term.

Well said Guff...

 

[ginsuown]

Not to offend anybody here, but IMO the folks who are saying they'd be happy paying $55k for a ~335 horsepower Supra don't come across as real buyers.

Again, not to single anyone out, but the general theme I get from people (in this thread and others, on this forum and elsewhere) who like to talk about how horsepower isn't important, driver feel and all of that, power-to-weight etc., is of someone who is a sportscar enthusiast, may or may not be a sportscar owner, and doesn't actually plan to buy one of these new, but maybe wouldn't mind perhaps picking one up used for half price one day, possibly 5-10 years out. Or they're journalists who write about the car but again aren't going to buy one.

Sort of like how all the internet commenters and magazine writers say they want a stickshift, but buyers don't actually buy them.

The market demands that a sportscar be fast, and that means it have some horsepower. Only a few manufacturers can get away with underpowered but expensive sportscars, e.g. Lotus, Alfa 4c, etc., and they sell in very small numbers. The ones that sell in any substantial figure (Cayman, M2) have a more exciting badge attached, and again still don't sell a ton of units.

There will always be a handful to prove me wrong, but I just don't see how they will sell many cars at this price point. FT1 was simply incredible, a hugely exciting prospect, but this is just ho-hum.

I agree with a lot of what you said, but again "horsepower" and "underpowered" have to be taken in consideration with weight when talking about fast/slow.

I mentioned before that 911's were "underpowered" if you look at the pure horsepower number, but they're not in any way slow. Underpowered for their price, but very, very fast for their price.

No matter what horsepower this supra comes with, if it's light enough to go 0-60 in 3.8, that makes it competitive with almost anything under $100k. "Underpowered"? Maybe. Slow? Definitely not.

 

[Craigy]

Considering all of us except a small number of insiders are basing our opinion on speculative hypotheticals I think its fair to say at this point in-time its far too early to draw any conclusions. To call the car Ho-hum is very premature, and enthusiast would agrue that so far from the render the car is actually pretty close to concept. Closer than many would have thought even with the cladding on. Visually this car certainly looks close to what was promised atleast as far as we can tell.

Performance on the other hand, yes I think the car needs more aswell, but we don't know the facts so we can't just jump to conclusions. Let Toyota play there hand before we just call there bluff. 8 Days...

The leaked specs (if we can trust them) are ho-hum.

Looks wise I have a lot of hope for this car. But as a package, from what we know right now, it's a far, far cry from FT1 which was a legitimate 911 S, Corvette, GTR competitor.

I agree though, still going to wait and see.

 

[A70TTR]

While I would tend to agree with you, Toyota does have suppliers and manufacturing facilities in Europe, so it wouldn't need to be shipped from Japan in order to have Toyota parts installed.

For what it's worth, there are multiple Toyota models built and sold in Europe that have BMW engines installed in them (Auris, RAV4, Avensis, etc.). For BMW to build the car with a Toyota engine, seems easily possible, especially if that engine was built at a European Toyota engine plant. That said, based on their current engine manufacturing in Europe, for a smaller-scale production, it seems more likely the engine would just be shipped from Japan.

I would expect all sheet metal and many of the body and drivetrain components to be sourced from BMW suppliers, but Toyota has enough manufacturing in the area to provide components if needed.

Nice of you to join us, @Jeff Lange.

For those of you not in the know, Jeff has been a part of the Supra community for a long time and knows ALOT about Supras. In fact, he's a like a human encyclopedia on the subject.

The comical part is, I know him well but he will never know who this is

 

[Lexusisf]

Hey phantom (A70) good to know you are staying anonymous with everyone not just us...lol

 

[2jztks]

I love it A70 I vote u change your user name to the A70-phantom. lol maybe thats the code name for the new supra the Toyota"Phantom" sounds better than "Gazoo"...

 

[ecae]

No matter what horsepower this supra comes with, if it's light enough to go 0-60 in 3.8, that makes it competitive with almost anything under $100k. "Underpowered"? Maybe. Slow? Definitely not.

You can get a lot of very capable cars for under $100K. the new supra is never going to, or intended to compete with something like the Camaro ZL1 1LE, Corvette Z06 or 718 GTS. it's not in the same league.

depending on what the final price is, it's either going to compete very well against the under $65K crowd by offering style, performance, reliability and value in one neat package, or, if it's priced too high (>$55K), it'll turn into a high powered 86 that people rave for a year and gets axed after one generation.

people still buy the M240i vs Camaro SS or Mustang GT because there's a BMW badge on the hood and you get a relatively nicer interior, not because it handles better. Toyota needs to price this car competitively in order to ensure it'll have future generations, or maybe Toyota only plans on doing this for one single generation to begin with...

 

[tfoxyr]

You're certainly right about people not putting money where their mouths are. Just remember what happened with the 86, Toyota came out with a light, simple, drivers car, when enthusiasts were tired of heavy, complicated cars. It was received with open arms, second coming, blah blah blah. Then people got tired of it, said it needed more power to really sell properly.

If in a years time, the Supra is a fantastic drivers vehicle with more power than an 86, literally what enthusiasts and journalists have begged for, they will receive it with open arms, call it the second coming, blah blah blah. Then after a couple years, they will find the next fatal flaw and say, "Gee if only it came with xxxx, maybe we would have bought it".

And on top of that, Toyota's bosses want to see more $$$ return than the 86 got them, in a car that had inherently been expensive to design and produce, even with cost sharing with BMW. Creating something lightweight and driver oriented is inherently going to involve more complex manufacturing and more expensive materials.

Then, Toyota's bean counters clearly won't let their engineers make better, faster, second generations, this much is painfully obvious with the 86, because they need to see the cash flow to justify it.

So that leaves us with another aging sports car, that is very good in its own right, with only passable sales figures, waiting to be refreshed, or more likely, killed off.

The problem is though, what's the alternative? They can sacrifice the enthusiasts dream and go GT, with more power, and more $$$, but then the enthusiasts will angrily shout and point at the RC and LC and say, "You already make this luxo-garbage, what about us?" And journalists will review it and say, "It's nice, sure, but too bad it wasn't the fast drivers car that the 86 should/could have been". And Toyota ends up with a "safer" car that fits better in this market, but doesn't make enough of a splash to really make sales.

It's a conundrum really. I don't know which approach would benefit Toyota more in the long term, but I'm sure they spent years trying to figure it out. And while I am of the "drivers car" camp, I would rather Toyota make whatever is most beneficial for them in terms of marketability, so they can continue making fun cars in the future. I just have to assume that they've thought the same thing and put serious consideration into it, and are making the decision that makes the most sense in the long term.

You are right about some suff sure . But keep in mind that many sports cars sell , for example camaros and mustangs sell really well in the US , also mustangs sell pretty good in europe too which is very unexpected considering the price is close to 35k in many countries here . My point is that japanese sports cars at the moment can't relate to what the customers want , with the emphasis on the customers . For the 86 , having the speed as a caveat is a sign to offer maybe one more trim to the car or just boost it . I believe they neglected too much the sports car segment so it is natural that they are out of touch , take the mk4 supra for example , it took 4 generations to nail some things like weight ,power(every new supra generation became better) .

 

[HKz]

You are right about some suff sure . But keep in mind that many sports cars sell , for example camaros and mustangs sell really well in the US , also mustangs sell pretty good in europe too which is very unexpected considering the price is close to 35k in many countries here . My point is that japanese sports cars at the moment can't relate to what the customers want , with the emphasis on the customers . For the 86 , having the speed as a caveat is a sign to offer maybe one more trim to the car or just boost it . I believe they neglected too much the sports car segment so it is natural that they are out of touch , take the mk4 supra for example , it took 4 generations to nail some things like weight ,power(every new supra generation became better) .

correction, muscle cars & corvettes sell well in America, partly due to fleet sales...beyond that no sports car sells "well" in any market currently, they are all niche and limited. The 86 still does well in tougher markets...if I remember correctly, the 86 was the best selling RWD coupe in Italy last year (or maybe the year before)

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