Formula 1 Talk

[nibble]

There are 2 championship points, Individual & Team. Sometimes the objectives are not same with driver and team. For example, if one team's drivers, A & B, are in position, 3 & 4. And they are far off from P2 but A & B are close enough to fight. From Driver's perspective, P4 want more point or in podium position but from team's perspective, it doesn't matter who finishes p3 or p4 as team will get same points for manufacturer but if A & B start fight each other and crashes out, team will get no points. - has happened to RB when Riccardo and other driver was team even with team order.

above is just one simple scenario that team order is given but there are many complex scenarios that team has to make decision best for the team while drivers need to achieve their goal as well.

Typically, MB let their both drivers fight in the beginning of the season as long as they don't crash each other. Then toward the end of the season, when there's discrepancy on points, they will favor one has higher point or close to next position in driver's point. As for RB, they favor 1st driver from the beginning by asking 2nd driver to help out (i.e. swap winning position) but won't help out 2nd driver for any point at no cost to team or 1st driver.

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[Dannyvandelft]

. As for RB, they favor 1st driver from the beginning by asking 2nd driver to help out (i.e. swap winning position) but won't help out 2nd driver for any point at no cost to team or 1st driver.

Aaaaaaaaand bullshit. When has Red Bull EVER ordered a driver to give a win to the other?

Mercedes sure has. Hint: it was with Bottas.

You really need to let go of your bias.

 

[gixxersixxerman]

Aaaaaaaaand bullshit. When has Red Bull EVER ordered a driver to give a win to the other?

Mercedes sure has. Hint: it was with Bottas.

You really need to let go of your bias.

And you are not biased at all?? Bottas wasnt fighting for a championship and Lewis was. Also, Max was given team orders and completely ignored them. You are as biased as ever the other way... I remember 1 team that filled up a car just enough to make it about half race distance to help out their number 1.... what was that again???? oh yeah RB. They completely sent 1 car out there knowing it couldnt go a full race just for the other driver.

 

[Dannyvandelft]

And you are not biased at all?? Bottas wasnt fighting for a championship and Lewis was. Also, Max was given team orders and completely ignored them. You are as biased as ever the other way... I remember 1 team that filled up a car just enough to make it about half race distance to help out their number 1.... what was that again???? oh yeah RB. They completely sent 1 car out there knowing it couldnt go a full race just for the other driver.

And when was that? Proof of that?

I may have my favorites, sure, but I don't make up things like your comment, and the other.

 

[gixxersixxerman]

And when was that? Proof of that?

I may have my favorites, sure, but I don't make up things like your comment, and the other.

What?????? lolol, Abu Dhabi 21, Perez had to retire because fuel. He stayed out long enough to hold Lewis up and didn't have enough fuel to finish the race. How many articles would you like me to research for you?

 

[Dannyvandelft]

What?????? lolol, Abu Dhabi 21, Perez had to retire because fuel. He stayed out long enough to hold Lewis up and didn't have enough fuel to finish the race. How many articles would you like me to research for you?

Show me where he ran out of fuel halfway through the race like you claimed. He parked in the pit under his own power a few laps before the end. It didn't affect the title race, AT ALL. Unlike Mercedes swapping Bottas for the win, something Red Bull was accused of by Nibble, and I merely pointed out that was not the case.

So tell me, since you immediately jumped up, has Red Bull ever?

No?

Has Mercedes?

Yes?

Ok then. All your other nonsense has literally nothing to do with what I, or Nibble said. ?‍

 

[gixxersixxerman]

Show me where he ran out of fuel halfway through the race like you claimed. He parked in the pit under his own power a few laps before the end. It didn't affect the title race, AT ALL. Unlike Mercedes swapping Bottas for the win, something Red Bull was accused of by Nibble, and I merely pointed out that was not the case.

So tell me, since you immediately jumped up, has Red Bull ever?

No?

Has Mercedes?

Yes?

Ok then. All your other nonsense has literally nothing to do with what I, or Nibble said. ?‍

I cant/wont argue with team orders for a win.. as far as i know, no RB has never for a win.

 

[Dannyvandelft]

I cant/wont argue with team orders for a win.. as far as i know, no RB has never for a win.

And that was all I said was bullshit. Red Bull has had their share of controversy, but they've never asked a driver to do that. Not during Multi-21 when they wanted them to hold station, not when Ric won Malaysia over Max. And they easily could have.

 

[FLtrackdays]

I'm a Drive to Survive F1 fan, can someone with a little longer history with the sport explain Team Orders to me? Like why is it such a big deal???

Young guy gets a contract, a contract, with a team, with financial responsibilities, has a need for them to drive in a certain way, why can't the drivers man up and drive that way. If I owned the car and I want you to box and retire the car on lap one because I want to go home early then why would the driver have such a time with it? They drive for the championship sure, but it's my multi-million dollar car and team and tires and wheels and paddock and all of that.

They don't like the order then quit. Don't want to quit mid season then quit at the end of the season. But in the end of the day, the ride is a privilege. I don't understand the angst.

If I was Mercedes or Ferrari or any of these teams with closely matched drivers, I'd have an algorithm that decided the primary driver. And the primary driver gets all the 50/50s. Two cars running 1 and 2 -- switch so the primary driver wins. Two cars running 3 and 4 -- switch so the primary driver gets the podium. Two cars chasing down a car -- switch to the primary driver. Always. No doubt. Review the standing before each race so everyone understands the score. And then done. On track, need to make team order. Then follow the team order and be done. Don't want to be the secondary driver then do better at practice, in simulator, in the championship points, in whatever category.

But again, I'm just naïve Drive to Survive American viewer. Someone explain me the angst regarding a team acting like a team?

Letting Russel muscle his way in front of Hamilton or have any say against Lewis is mind blowing to me. Singapore… I got this Lewis, follow me! Crash, no finish. This week, let’s fight for 5th position! Poor Lewis has to deal with that. Move over George. You burned up your tires, Lewis is 2 seconds quicker, blah blah blah. It’s obvious dude... Lewis has a ? ton of championships. MOVE OVER George you moron ? ?

So I’m perplexed with that situation as well. Being newer watching & following the sport.

Meanwhile, Max won the mom of the week award pinching off Piastri then Norris at the start. That was brilliant to watch! Y’all ever listen or watch this podcast? ? They make fun of all of them, while being informative. So it’s my style. Like watching mohawk guy but the podcast version. Love it!

 

[RWhiz]

It’s ironic that probably the worst case of team orders was when Ferrari told Rubens to move over for the Michael at the 4th race of the year so the Michael could get maximum championship points. Michael then proceeded to push Rubens onto the top step and picked up a healthy fine if I recall correctly.

I had some South American friends at this point in my life and they were mortified that the guy who was tapped to be the next Senna would do that.

 

[RWhiz]

Letting Russel muscle his way in front of Hamilton or have any say against Lewis is mind blowing to me. Singapore… I got this Lewis, follow me! Crash, no finish. This week, let’s fight for 5th position! Poor Lewis has to deal with that. Move over George. You burned up your tires, Lewis is 2 seconds quicker, blah blah blah. It’s obvious dude... Lewis has a ? ton of championships. MOVE OVER George you moron ? ?

So I’m perplexed with that situation as well. Being newer watching & following the

George is a great qualifier, his nickname at Williams was Mr. Saturday, but Lewis is a better racer than George so it seems that often they end up with Lewis who has a faster race pace and is better at overtaking behind George how happens to be great on Saturday. Obviously George believes in his head that he is a better driver than Lewis or he wouldn’t have gotten to the position he has. So there are probably some inter team de-briefings that would be interesting to watch!

 

[RenRed2]

George is a great qualifier, his nickname at Williams was Mr. Saturday, but Lewis is a better racer than George so it seems that often they end up with Lewis who has a faster race pace and is better at overtaking behind George how happens to be great on Saturday. Obviously George believes in his head that he is a better driver than Lewis or he wouldn’t have gotten to the position he has. So there are probably some inter team de-briefings that would be interesting to watch!

George thinks he's Lando. Clearly not. Too many mistakes and he was mistake prone at Williams as well. He's like Charles at Ferrari - Fast, one lap ace, shite strategy calls from the car and makes too many mistakes at the wrong times. Sainz is the better of both Charles and George. They might be naturally faster but they have neither the skills to lead a team and are growing slower than others.

Charles is very much running out of time and is severely over paid for the lack of results he brings. He makes double what Sainz does. Talk about terrible ROI. He has not won a title and is in the upper 20's for salary. Sorry thats total BS. Both George and Charles have Lando, Piastri and soon Lawson to deal with as well as their team-mates. George is almost 2 races back in terms of points vs LH. Yeah he had a DNF etc. Singapore was not something to be excused at all. No excuse. Another less than growth/stellar year for George and I will openly question Mercedes keeping him.

Lawson said if he is a reserve next year, and it appears he is, then Mercedes need a succession plan for both LH and George. Lawson would be nice to replace George. If Russell was replaced would you hire him? I would not. He could maybe go to Aston if Lance Slow Stroll was fired. FA would eat him for lunch. He would be Haas material ..........maybe.

 

[Dannyvandelft]

George is getting Bottas'd. He needs to start acting like Rosberg. Get his elbows out. Show he's not a pushover. Or by the time Lewis retires, he won't have a shred of self-esteem left. Quit talking to the team thinking he's got somethingto add, he's not Alonso, or Max. He's the #2 and if he wants to be the #1, he's gonna have to show the team he's a killer. And right now he's a crying sack of potatoes after every race.

 

[kaj]

Dang. I'm late, again.

Can’t believe that I have to defend Perez but here we go. Last year at this time he had 210 points, this year he has 223. The only reason people are saying he sucks is because you are comparing him to Max. He is not Lance Stroll, and he is not Max or any of the other top drivers. But he is as deserving as any mid pack driver in F1.

Man, I like Checo but was face palming this last race. I TRULY hopes he gets his nerves in order. We all have bad days..and sometimes they snowball. I 100% expect him to be on his game this next race. This is the first time I've ever felt he couldn't handle a certain amount of pressure. Then again, none of us know what's going on in the background.

I feel like F1 points reward flashes of brilliance more than consistency,

How so? Genuinely asking. Not challenging.

I'm a Drive to Survive F1 fan, can someone with a little longer history with the sport explain Team Orders to me? Like why is it such a big deal???

Speaking as a generally-competitive person: It's all good at first. But then you realize you would like to win too.. because.. that's why got you into the sport and to this level. Then you realize that you are not set up to succeed, but to help gain constructor points. If you grew up playing a team sport, you would be down for this.. but you didn't. You spent your life getting to the uppermost echelon of an individual sport where your result reflects your skill level.. or does it? Not when you are a number two driver. Things start getting into your head. None of those drivers are really okay with being the number two driver. NONE of them.
You are one of the world's best drivers, but you are getting left overs and table scraps. "I'm the number two driver for the 2023 Constructors Championship team". It's just not satisfying. It's really, really hard to be okay with that because we are competitive.

 

[Awales74]

If you grew up playing a team sport, you would be down for this.. but you didn't

This is likely it. Petulant children of the rich and famous OR sophisticate sycophants of the rich in order to rise in the ranks. Ain't no brokee broke in F3 and F2. That can't seem to understand team, rank, patience, etc... The guys really aren't the admirable when you scratch the surface. Listen to them whine and whine when they are losing and then explain everything away when they are winning. fernandes shake weight is bad. Ferari fuel trick is bad. But whatever magic sauce on their tires is just good engineering.

Anyways, if I was team principle, I'd allow that competition in simulators and in practice. If your the faster driver then prove it. Use that competitiveness and beat your teammate behind closed doors. But if you can't win the shut up your number 2. And based on championship and race conditions you may be asked to do whatever I want with MY multimillion dollar car.

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