2019 Toyota Supra Prototype Reveals Production Intent Design/Parts
Sunspot
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If they re badge a bmw and change the body style..they're not gonna move any product IMHO.
It appears to be more of a reskin, rather than a rebadge. Honestly, your average car buyer probably isn't even going to know or even care. To them what matters most is looks, price, and performance.
HKz
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..would a potential MK5 Supra buyer be considered an average buyer though? I agree most general economy car consumers don't care or can't be bothered to know that sort of info like how most buyers of the Toyota iA don't know that it is a Mazda2. But take a look at the 86 twins..you would be hard pressed to find 86 fans who don't know the story behind Toyota & Subaru along with who manufactures the car, etc...and such details are quite important to that sort of crowd. I would logically think the potential MK5 Supra buyers will be among the most enthusiastic gearheads who know the history of Toyota & the Supra, the JZ engine series and so forth so it will be very interesting to see how both Toyota & BMW enthusiasts react to this.
If the powerplants are to be BMW engines I think it will turn off a lot of Toyota fans..after reading countless anti-BMW posts by hardcore Toyota YTers it is hard to see a lot of them truly embracing it...and you know if any quality control/reliability issues come up there's going to be some pitchforks.. I'm not sure the Supra will cannibalize any current BMWs either, so who will buy it except for the diehard fans...maybe Toyota/BMW will surprise us and knock the Corvette offs its podium as the best performance per dollar bargain
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I would say it depends. With the 86, what is the percent of buyers that are Toyota or Subaru enthusiasts, and how many just brought it based on how cool it looks? Its hard to gauge. Unfortunately at the end of the day its still about business as usual. This car is probably going to be catered to the massive public and not just a hand full of enthusiasts. If they pull in some current or former Supra owners/Toyota enthusiasts great, but from a sales point of view, its the general public that they will be after. I would even say that most people out there don't even know what a Supra is. Man if I had a dollar for every time someone asked me if my car was a Celica I could retired already lol. I still believe the majority of buyers will purchase it base on the three factors I posted earlier. If Toyota enthusiasts just cared about the power train than no one would have brought the 86.
If I had to guess, this is what I have read from the online community's views towards the Toyota & BMW mash up.
Supraforums is about 50/50
Bimmerpost is pretty much 100% anti Toyota
Bimmerfest, somewhat more open to the jointly project
I think the reliability will be ok. From personal experiences anything 3/4 or down is fine. Its when you start moving to the 5, 6, and 7 is when the nightmare begins.
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HKz
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..well if you follow ft86club.com and read all the threads started by potential 86 buyers they are all versed in the car's development..obviously that isn't a statistic but I doubt any non-enthusiast would walk into a Subaru or Toyota dealer and get talked into buying their least practical and functional model..if anything it was to attract the enthusiasts back into the Toyota dealers (Subie already had a good base from the WRX). Not to mention the 86 has helped boost the car culture scene arguably more than any single car since the 90s, I know from personal experience over the past few years. Of course to be fair the 86 came in at a time where I would say car culture was at a bit of a low point while we were coming out of the recession.
I don't agree with your assessment that these niche cars are made to "cater" to the massive public...hell even Toyota's own recent 86 commercials try to tell consumers the 86 ain't for them unless they like driving, and that is a very small group compared to the mass public who use cars as merely for transportation. In order to make the general public, who don't give a shit about driving, feel happy, what you're suggesting is we need softer suspension, more room/practicality (weight), less peaky power (cram as much torque as low in the RPM band as you can), etc...all the raw aspects enthusiasts want out of a performance car, let's throw them out the window I guess. Once a niche product enters the realm of trying to be well rounded it usually falls into obscurity.. While BMW could use the money, Toyota doesn't need to make a single sports or performance car to continue and make bank so you would hope that much like the LFA they are pouring as much resources as they can to give us the best outcome even if it means a bit of a hit is taken on their end. And after seeing how Lexus promoted the LFA, I don't think Toyota really cares to have a sports or performance car be the face of their brand. Much like how Honda mainly wanted to make the Ridgeline so that Honda families would have a matching Honda branded pickup in hopes that they continue and buy their main lineup, Toyota is on that same sort of path..
..the concerns between the 86's NA flat 4 and getting a FI BMW engine are quite different lol. I don't think anyone had a concern about reliability and maintenance for the NA subie engine. Plus come on, subie parts vs bmw parts...should be a no brainer.. But nonetheless there are indeed many AE86 & Supra fans that were put off that the 86 wasn't using a Toyota engine, and still to this day threads pop up about what if scenarios all the time..
from what I've read, nearly everyone from bmw is either against it or couldn't care less because none of them would give up their badge just to be seen in a bimmer with a japanese body kit and toy badge...
though I can only imagine the saltiness from M2/M4 owners if the Supra ends up being faster & cheaper than either of them 
while BMW fans may not care I'm sure it will still greatly pain them to know that BMW helped Toyota create a faster car than their own performance models (this dilemma is the biggest issue for me as I'm not sure if the power will blow us away 
)
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Maybe you are over thinking this, or I misunderstood you. Sunspot point was the car isn't going to sell in his option if it were a rebadge BMW. My simply reply was I don't believe so for the reasons stated...well if you follow ft86club.com and read all the threads started by potential 86 buyers they are all versed in the car's development..obviously that isn't a statistic but I doubt any non-enthusiast would walk into a Subaru or Toyota dealer and get talked into buying their least practical and functional model..if anything it was to attract the enthusiasts back into the Toyota dealers (Subie already had a good base from the WRX). Not to mention the 86 has helped boost the car culture scene arguably more than any single car since the 90s, I know from personal experience over the past few years. Of course to be fair the 86 came in at a time where I would say car culture was at a bit of a low point while we were coming out of the recession.
I don't agree with your assessment that these niche cars are made to "cater" to the massive public...hell even Toyota's own recent 86 commercials try to tell consumers the 86 ain't for them unless they like driving, and that is a very small group compared to the mass public who use cars as merely for transportation. In order to make the general public, who don't give a shit about driving, feel happy, what you're suggesting is we need softer suspension, more room/practicality (weight), less peaky power (cram as much torque as low in the RPM band as you can), etc...all the raw aspects enthusiasts want out of a performance car, let's throw them out the window I guess. Once a niche product enters the realm of trying to be well rounded it usually falls into obscurity.. While BMW could use the money, Toyota doesn't need to make a single sports or performance car to continue and make bank so you would hope that much like the LFA they are pouring as much resources as they can to give us the best outcome even if it means a bit of a hit is taken on their end. And after seeing how Lexus promoted the LFA, I don't think Toyota really cares to have a sports or performance car be the face of their brand. Much like how Honda mainly wanted to make the Ridgeline so that Honda families would have a matching Honda branded pickup in hopes that they continue and buy their main lineup, Toyota is on that same sort of path..
..the concerns between the 86's NA flat 4 and getting a FI BMW engine are quite different lol. I don't think anyone had a concern about reliability and maintenance for the NA subie engine. Plus come on, subie parts vs bmw parts...should be a no brainer.. But nonetheless there are indeed many AE86 & Supra fans that were put off that the 86 wasn't using a Toyota engine, and still to this day threads pop up about what if scenarios all the time..
from what I've read, nearly everyone from bmw is either against it or couldn't care less because none of them would give up their badge just to be seen in a bimmer with a japanese body kit and toy badge...
No doubt one of the points of the 86 was to bring people into the Toyota family. I have been a contributing member of that forum since it started. If I recall correctly a lot of the OGs were Honda owners looking to upgrade from their Si and RSX and didn't know crap about Toyotas. Funny story, a male nurse (non-enthusiast) at my dr's office brought a FRS because it looked sporty. Anyways, thats besides the point because as you said none of us have the real statistics.
This won't be a niche product in the way the MK4 was. Reports are saying 60,000 units will be made yearly. So I'm assuming 50/50 for BMW and Toyota. That is a shit load when compared to the MK4. The US was one of the biggest market for the MK4 and sales from 93-98 were roughly only 11k units.
Maybe I miss stated this. I never meant to say this car will just be cater to the massive public. Or that Toyota doesn't want loyal enthusiast to consider this car. But if you were a CEO running the company would you think the bigger picture would be to appeal to greater public, and as you said bring people into the Toyota brand. You would be limiting sales or outreach if the only goal was to just make a hand full of Supra owners happy ($100k+ GT-R fighter). If that were the case than this car would have been a shorten reskin Lexus LC with a 3JZ.
Just for curiosity, have you ever own a BMW? I'm only asking because I use to think that way about BMWs, Mercedes, and etc. Everyone is making them out to be awful and costing an arm and leg to keep up with. And yes, some of them are truly awful cars (E60, E65), and lets not forget Toyota has their fair shares of issues too. But back to BMW, from personal experience anything 3/4 and down is pretty good for the most part and the up keeps isn't too bad. Everyone is acting like a Z4 has as much issues or cost the same to repair as a M6. A lot of people on the 86 forum that are posting negative comments towards BMW almost always starts out with "my friend's BMW..." Besides, its going to be a $50k-$60k car, if not more; those that can afford the price tag and afford the upkeep. And for those that are really worried about BMW's reliability, just do a 2JZ swap
Well here are some of links to other forums on the topic of a Z5/MK5 Supra. I'll let everyone be the judge to people's responds.
http://www.6post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1216427
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?746321-Toyota-debuts-FT1-sports-car.
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=920794
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HKz
Well-Known Member
growing up in az honda guys were usually the biggest car enthusiasts in general so that isn't a surprise
lol but how is it not niche when toyota moves 300,000+ rav4s to the us alone..this is chump change for them even if that half of 60,000 figure turns out true not to mention I assume that is a worldwide production number (imagine comparing that to any other toyota models' global sales). with toyota/lexus having announced they are capping the lc to 400 per month, just 4800 per year for a $90k car..so 30,000 supras would be 2500 per month which might be reasonable but it is still a niche product...if i remember correctly it took 3 years for the 86 twins to sell more than 100,000 copies and we all know how few of them they sell right now so we shall see.
not sure where you're going with how the new supra should appeal..my main concern is for a limited sports car to not lose its rawness....and im not sure what would have been the issue with the lc > supra? isnt that what they did with the original sc only to make millions of fan boys cream their pants?
no i have not personally owned a bimmer. my pops flipped cars and a good chunk of my experience was through those days fixing cars with him.. would love to own one though and i guess if i get the supra i sort of will be
of course toyota/lexus has had their fair share of problems, there is no such thing as a perfect or unbreakable car (at least so far) but we know stats don't lie..i go through bimmer forums, im subscribed to consumer reports, there's a bunch of # of repair stats and while i know bmw aren't notably unreliable or bad, they are indeed a step below toyota/lexus and the costs alone are still night and day...https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/the-most-and-least-expensive-cars-to-maintain-by-maddy-martin and this ain't hate in any way..im not naive, obviously there are trade offs everywhere..clearly toyota/lexus are not trying to push performance typically and they have usually played their engine/tranny tech quite conservatively...but seeing a lot of us are past celica, supra, mr2, etc fans it will nonetheless be new territory..
Sun Devil
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In a perfect world .... yes the Supra should have been 100% Toyota. But that is not the case and not sure why we are still debating this. The car is a joint venture between BMW and Toyota. Period. The 2 cars will only share chassis and possibly engines. The outside will and should be different.. I don't see this as the same as the FR-S/BRZ. Those cars essentially were the SAME with different badges.
Not sure if the Supra will cater to everyone (enthusiasts and the others). I would hope that the Supra would be a niche car like the 86. Especially with what Tada San has said.
If Toyota wanted to cheap out .... they easily could have used a Lexus chassis. Supra a cheap version of the bloated LC. If anything ... I see the bmw involvement as a good sign towards a car that is different from the Lexus meaning a more focused enthusiast driving machine.
Not sure if the Supra will cater to everyone (enthusiasts and the others). I would hope that the Supra would be a niche car like the 86. Especially with what Tada San has said.
If Toyota wanted to cheap out .... they easily could have used a Lexus chassis. Supra a cheap version of the bloated LC. If anything ... I see the bmw involvement as a good sign towards a car that is different from the Lexus meaning a more focused enthusiast driving machine.
HKz
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we are debating the acceptance by potential MK5 supra buyers.. and please, what do you mean "only share chassis and possibly engines", they are sharing virtually the only major aspects that determine performance and handling lol...are you insinuating you're happy that BMW is just slapping on a Toyota body kit? no shit this ain't like the 86 project, toyota and bmw aren't jointly coming together to give us their one interpretation of a sports car that both companies would be happy to slap their respective badges on it...but hilariously I hope you do realize the outcome is pretty much the same here especially if toyota doesn't utilize any of their own engines. The potential war from the conflicting interests between bmw protecting their brand & toyota wanting to make the supra a performance beast will make the outcome very interesting...
of course this will be a niche car...what sports or performance car isn't..
Not sure why it would have been the cheap route for Toyota to use their own architecture that they just developed..isn't that the whole point of using the same chassis, interior & potentially engines with a competitor? and the LC isn't bloated...for its size the weight is reasonable...plus don't you think removing all that leather + sound insulation and so forth couldn't potentially result in something special? The MK4 Supra shaved 300 pounds from the SC..
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Same here man, back in High school the student parking lot was filled with tons of Hondas lol.growing up in az honda guys were usually the biggest car enthusiasts in general so that isn't a surprise
lol but how is it not niche when toyota moves 300,000+ rav4s to the us alone..this is chump change for them even if that half of 60,000 figure turns out true not to mention I assume that is a worldwide production number (imagine comparing that to any other toyota models' global sales). with toyota/lexus having announced they are capping the lc to 400 per month, just 4800 per year for a $90k car..so 30,000 supras would be 2500 per month which might be reasonable but it is still a niche product...if i remember correctly it took 3 years for the 86 twins to sell more than 100,000 copies and we all know how few of them they sell right now so we shall see.
not sure where you're going with how the new supra should appeal..my main concern is for a limited sports car to not lose its rawness....and im not sure what would have been the issue with the lc > supra? isnt that what they did with the original sc only to make millions of fan boys cream their pants?
no i have not personally owned a bimmer. my pops flipped cars and a good chunk of my experience was through those days fixing cars with him.. would love to own one though and i guess if i get the supra i sort of will be
Agree, those reported numbers have nothing on Toyota's bread and butter models. But if true, or even half it, it would still be pretty high when compared to the MK4's 10 year global production numbers at 45k. I'm just thinking this new car will be more mainstream like the MK3 in terms of sales.
I'm not exactly sure where I was going either. It was a late night lol. I guess what I was trying to say is it appears they are wanting to open this car up to a larger audience, rather than just limit it to the purist's wishlist. Also agree with you; I'm more concern with the finish product.
No doubt as a whole brand BMWs are expensive to keep up with and will most likely have more issues over time than your average Japanese car. The study you posted said over a 10 year period. So I am assuming they looked at 05/06 + models? If so I wouldn't be surprised by the findings. They are a lot of models from that time period from BMW were nightmares to deal with. In my case the dealer quoted me $9k to replace 3 computer modules on our 545i. But I believe more modern BMWs have improved going by what owners are saying and current studies of more recent models.
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Sunspot
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..well if you follow ft86club.com and read all the threads started by potential 86 buyers they are all versed in the car's development..obviously that isn't a statistic but I doubt any non-enthusiast would walk into a Subaru or Toyota dealer and get talked into buying their least practical and functional model..if anything it was to attract the enthusiasts back into the Toyota dealers (Subie already had a good base from the WRX). Not to mention the 86 has helped boost the car culture scene arguably more than any single car since the 90s, I know from personal experience over the past few years. Of course to be fair the 86 came in at a time where I would say car culture was at a bit of a low point while we were coming out of the recession.
I don't agree with your assessment that these niche cars are made to "cater" to the massive public...hell even Toyota's own recent 86 commercials try to tell consumers the 86 ain't for them unless they like driving, and that is a very small group compared to the mass public who use cars as merely for transportation. In order to make the general public, who don't give a shit about driving, feel happy, what you're suggesting is we need softer suspension, more room/practicality (weight), less peaky power (cram as much torque as low in the RPM band as you can), etc...all the raw aspects enthusiasts want out of a performance car, let's throw them out the window I guess. Once a niche product enters the realm of trying to be well rounded it usually falls into obscurity.. While BMW could use the money, Toyota doesn't need to make a single sports or performance car to continue and make bank so you would hope that much like the LFA they are pouring as much resources as they can to give us the best outcome even if it means a bit of a hit is taken on their end. And after seeing how Lexus promoted the LFA, I don't think Toyota really cares to have a sports or performance car be the face of their brand. Much like how Honda mainly wanted to make the Ridgeline so that Honda families would have a matching Honda branded pickup in hopes that they continue and buy their main lineup, Toyota is on that same sort of path..
..the concerns between the 86's NA flat 4 and getting a FI BMW engine are quite different lol. I don't think anyone had a concern about reliability and maintenance for the NA subie engine. Plus come on, subie parts vs bmw parts...should be a no brainer.. But nonetheless there are indeed many AE86 & Supra fans that were put off that the 86 wasn't using a Toyota engine, and still to this day threads pop up about what if scenarios all the time..
from what I've read, nearly everyone from bmw is either against it or couldn't care less because none of them would give up their badge just to be seen in a bimmer with a japanese body kit and toy badge...
I agree with this except for the fact you are comparing the 86 to the Supra. To me the Supra was an iconic flagship unit. There was no question what the Scion FRS was going to be when it rolled out.
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