Why I Think Everyone is Wrong About the MKV (Video)

PerformanceSound

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Threads
19
Messages
1,873
Reaction score
3,357
Location
USA
Car(s)
2020 Tundra TRD Pro, 1994 MKIV Supra TT
Vehicle Showcase
2
Just thought I'd throw this out there as a reminder....:D

"It's difficult to bring back what was there in the past...due to regulations and so forth. I think those types of cars (Supra) should be left well alone, and what we can do as designers is to create a new concept to capture the essence...the essence of those cars (Supra)...the essence of what that meant in that era, the authenticity of that era. There was alot of advances in technology back then, but its (Supra) still missing alot of the requirements that are necessary to make cars safe today. That really plays alot into what the final car (FT-1) looks like."

- Alex Shen (FT-1 Chief Exterior Designer).
Sponsored

 

Captain_Kirk

Well-Known Member
First Name
Kirk
Joined
Sep 19, 2017
Threads
23
Messages
1,373
Reaction score
2,253
Location
US
Car(s)
?
Just thought I'd throw this out there as a reminder....:D

"It's difficult to bring back what was there in the past...due to regulations and so forth. I think those types of cars (Supra) should be left well alone, and what we can do as designers is to create a new concept to capture the essence...the essence of those cars (Supra)...the essence of what that meant in that era, the authenticity of that era. There was alot of advances in technology back then, but its (Supra) still missing alot of the requirements that are necessary to make cars safe today. That really plays alot into what the final car (FT-1) looks like."

- Alex Shen (FT-1 Chief Exterior Designer).
I thought they were referring to the 2000GT. @ 7:50 mark

 

PerformanceSound

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Threads
19
Messages
1,873
Reaction score
3,357
Location
USA
Car(s)
2020 Tundra TRD Pro, 1994 MKIV Supra TT
Vehicle Showcase
2
I thought they were referring to the 2000GT. @ 7:50 mark

The MKIV Supra, because the entire video starts off as, "the very first thing they ask you is, when's the next Supra coming?" The 2000GT (while an amazing car) doesn't have the same impact that the MKIV Supra has on the current generation of sports car enthusiasts.
 
Last edited:

Mike

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2016
Threads
3
Messages
231
Reaction score
801
Location
Cyprus
Car(s)
NISSAN Silvia S15 Spec-R
Hi Guff,

Hope you are doing great.

I appreciate people who judge more spherically and try to be objective.
Allow me though to explain why i disagree at a very high extend with this view.

For automakers, the most challenging part today is survival. The final decisions for strategies (unfortunately) are not made by sportscar enthusiast usually but by accountants, lawyers and investors seeking revenue. The economic crisis and other factors brought up the need for cost cuts. Most impacted sector was the sports segment.
A common phenomenon today is joint development of shared platforms. That for me is acceptable to a certain level for mass production models like saloons, SUVs, to cut costs. Or even sportscars. But note this!
The GT86 was an epic dissappointment (although younger audiences who haven't lived the golden JDM decade of the 1990's-2000 dont consider the fact that Toyota's most iconic Initial D, drift machine, the "86" has a Subaru flat-4 NA engine. UNACCEPTABLE.... Even for cost cuts, there are so many 4-cylinder powertrains in Toyota/Lexus arsenal that with little tuning you easily have a high-revving 200hp engine. (that could also be used in other Toyota / GR models). This of course doesn't mean the GT86 is not a good car. But they should have the opportunity to distinguish the powertrains between Toyota and Subaru. They killed the 86 soul...
A halo car, a flagship, a model with generations of history owes to have some red lines not to be crossed. The Supra, could have used the Lexus LC coupe chassis. With a 3.0L twin turbo engine , much less luxury and 2/3 of the price. Not a BMW Z4 chassis.... Facts talk.... Now they realised it and are running paniced to change that by adding performance and more sporty characteristics... They tried to merge two cars with totally different philosophies.
I don't expect the new Supra to be a 1000hp monster. But at least stand up to the history and its name.To be a performer GT coupe. Twin turbo 6-cylinder FR layout. And that should have been made 5-6 years ago. The FT1 concept meets this expectations. But the production car, i am not sure..
Look at the NISSAN GT-R. Carlos Ghosn made the near bankrupt NISSAN to the No1 selling automaker in few years. The GT-R played a major role in that. Not so much on its own sales as acting as "halo car". A dedicated development. Using some elements from previous generations of the legendary Skyline GT-R. Do you think it would stand a chance having the same success if it had an under-powered engine and a shared chassis with Mercedes SL?
Or if it had two variations , one of which with a totally different 4-cylinder engine? NEVER....
Look at the 350Z as a successor of the Z32 300ZX. Total dissapoinment. Underpowered, lazy, was a step backwards.... The last years they improved that through nismo especially but still the signs of the wrong path are visible. This is why now its being heard that they will use the Infiniti Q60 coupe platform with the VR30DETT and make a new Z.
History has shown examples of both succesfull and failures joint developments.
The Supra must keep the heritage and be a worthy successor. I prefer to believe that there will be one version (instead of two versions with different engines) even if back in the MKIV there were the SZ and RZ versions. Today a single global version is the correct choice. Even based on the shared chassis with the BMW Z4, a Toyota 3l 6-cylinder twin turbo engine with 350-400hp, 6-speed DCT, RWD would be ideal under the given circuimstances. With a GRMN version later on with different GT-3 spec turbines, ECU, brakes, suspension and aero parts on 450+hp (similar to the GT-R roadmap and philosophy).

Mike Papas
 
Last edited:

tfoxyr

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2016
Threads
1
Messages
251
Reaction score
319
Location
matrix
Car(s)
suzuki swift sport
I actually agree that if a supra successor is made , it should be made with toyota chassis + powertrain but i believe a manual gearbox as an option is a must . The thing with shared platforms though shouldnt turn us off because in the end some decent cars can be made out of a deal like that. For example the collab with subaru could have produced a truly low cost car (18k-20k) with flat four engine like the toyota sports 800 had , and in that case it wouldnt be underpowered because if u wanted something faster a mid pack 86 could fill that role with supercharged or turbo of course with like 250hp with a price tag of like 30k and then if u wanted something even faster 55k-60k supra.
 

PerformanceSound

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Threads
19
Messages
1,873
Reaction score
3,357
Location
USA
Car(s)
2020 Tundra TRD Pro, 1994 MKIV Supra TT
Vehicle Showcase
2
While I agree with what Mike Pappas said above, and I feel as disappointed with many JDM failures based on the 90’s-00’s sportscars....I always think back to one thing..........the MKIV Supra was more German than it was Japanese. It’s true! Even though Toyota built the car in Japan as final assembly, a good majority of its research & development was outsourced to German firms GmBH. The best, most stout and sought after part of the MKIV Supra was a German made Getrag transmission! I had read somewhere that even Porsche’s international R&D firm had some involvement in the 2JZ development...Not sure how true that is. So, I am as worried as everyone about the FT-1 being a BMW with a Toyota badge....however I am hoping that Toyota will only use chassis shared between the two platforms...the engines will be pure Toyota JDM goodness.
 

SupraGuy19

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2017
Threads
1
Messages
73
Reaction score
108
Location
CA
Car(s)
CRV Turbo
Vehicle Showcase
1
In a day and age where a Civic Type R and Focus RS (economy sport compacts) are already 306/350hp, respectively, and to see rumors of a Supra with only 385hp and to top it off being powered by BMW, it just seems awful. It was developed in Germany, shown going in and out of the BMW facility in the past. I am not sure what is "Toyota" about this upcoming car other than the sheetmetal and maybe the emblems.
 

tfoxyr

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2016
Threads
1
Messages
251
Reaction score
319
Location
matrix
Car(s)
suzuki swift sport
Actually Ford Focus RS is an impressive car in my opinion. 3139 lbs , 350hp all wheel drive with a 4 cylinder , amazing acceleration and it costs 30k .I mean i dont know if it is reliable as toyotas but still . I just hope supra has good reliability (not bmw reliability oh my god! ) , about 390 -400 hp from the 6 cylinder , manual option and is nimble . Also i believe 4 cylinder with 230-250 hp should be a next gen 86 not a flagship.
 

Spilner

Banned
Banned
Banned
First Name
earl
Joined
Aug 17, 2017
Threads
1
Messages
1,234
Reaction score
1,228
Location
koreatown
Car(s)
none
While I agree with what Mike Pappas said above, and I feel as disappointed with many JDM failures based on the 90’s-00’s sportscars....I always think back to one thing..........the MKIV Supra was more German than it was Japanese. It’s true! Even though Toyota built the car in Japan as final assembly, a good majority of its research & development was outsourced to German firms GmBH. The best, most stout and sought after part of the MKIV Supra was a German made Getrag transmission! I had read somewhere that even Porsche’s international R&D firm had some involvement in the 2JZ development...Not sure how true that is. So, I am as worried as everyone about the FT-1 being a BMW with a Toyota badge....however I am hoping that Toyota will only use chassis shared between the two platforms...the engines will be pure Toyota JDM goodness.
GmBH? They're always blocking my live streams!!
 

Spilner

Banned
Banned
Banned
First Name
earl
Joined
Aug 17, 2017
Threads
1
Messages
1,234
Reaction score
1,228
Location
koreatown
Car(s)
none
In a day and age where a Civic Type R and Focus RS (economy sport compacts) are already 306/350hp, respectively, and to see rumors of a Supra with only 385hp and to top it off being powered by BMW, it just seems awful. It was developed in Germany, shown going in and out of the BMW facility in the past. I am not sure what is "Toyota" about this upcoming car other than the sheetmetal and maybe the emblems.
maybe that is why Akio Toyoda is still working on it?
 

PerformanceSound

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Threads
19
Messages
1,873
Reaction score
3,357
Location
USA
Car(s)
2020 Tundra TRD Pro, 1994 MKIV Supra TT
Vehicle Showcase
2
GmBH? They're always blocking my live streams!!
The acronym 'GmbH', which is written after the name of the company, designates a company as private in Germany. The letters stand for Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung which, translated literally, means a ‘company with limited liability’.

I believe Toyota outsourced much of the 2JZ’s develops in the MKIV Supra to Johann A. Krause Maschinefabrik GmbH in Germany...it’s true, and that turned out pretty damn well.
 

Spilner

Banned
Banned
Banned
First Name
earl
Joined
Aug 17, 2017
Threads
1
Messages
1,234
Reaction score
1,228
Location
koreatown
Car(s)
none
The acronym 'GmbH', which is written after the name of the company, designates a company as private in Germany. The letters stand for Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung which, translated literally, means a ‘company with limited liability’.

I believe Toyota outsourced much of the 2JZ’s develops in the MKIV Supra to Johann A. Krause Maschinefabrik GmbH in Germany...it’s true, and that turned out pretty damn well.
if that's the case, why did the German part screw toyota over at Le Mans 2016?
 
OP
OP
Guff

Guff

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Sep 8, 2016
Threads
23
Messages
1,683
Reaction score
7,404
Location
USA
Car(s)
A80, A90, Mk1 Celica
Vehicle Showcase
1
I'll just add one thing:

Details and numbers have their place, but the driving experience is the end all. Everyone can complain that 86 isn't an AE86 successor because of Subarus and boxers, but I've driven both extensively, and I can honestly say that there very much is a shared experience.

Toyota can make the Supra by themselves, with BMW, or with Ford/GM/Volvo for all I care; using a I6, V6, or even batteries. I've been driving JZA80s since before I got my license. If the new car doesn't feel like a successor to the Supra, then it missed the mark. If it does feel like a successor to the Supra, then awesome, Toyota got it right!

That's all. Whether or not that happens, remains to be seen. But I know enough about Toyota's development team to know they feel the same way. They, just like I, are interested in driving the car for the sake of driving, regardless of what the spec sheet may be or who they may have partnered with.
 

mas921

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Threads
1
Messages
249
Reaction score
596
Location
Bahrain
Car(s)
Several RWD's
The acronym 'GmbH', which is written after the name of the company, designates a company as private in Germany. The letters stand for Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung which, translated literally, means a ‘company with limited liability’.

I believe Toyota outsourced much of the 2JZ’s develops in the MKIV Supra to Johann A. Krause Maschinefabrik GmbH in Germany...it’s true, and that turned out pretty damn well.
Wait.. what? WHAT??!! my whole life is a lie...
 

HKz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2016
Threads
0
Messages
787
Reaction score
1,251
Location
Arizona
Car(s)
FRS
Wait.. what? WHAT??!! my whole life is a lie...
I think @PerformanceSound might've gone with an incorrect wiki entry. Appears like Johann's firm was mainly there to build the original prototypes but obviously it is impossible to deduct over the intrawebz

http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=310623
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?641663-help-with-2JZ-history-origin
https://www.germancarforum.com/threads/just-how-smooth-an-inline-six-is-really.40370/
Sponsored

 
 




Top