Audio Build Journal | HELIX | FOCAL | SoundShield

[METAL]

It is something they already had implemented. You should have it.

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[glennQNYC]

I highly recommend you go active. You have the channels available on the K2 8.1.1 .

As a trained audio engineer with over 35 years experience in designing audio systems; I fully grasp the theoretical allure of eliminating the passive filters and going active. However, I usually recommend against this unless the tuner is skilled on an expert level (not saying you personally aren’t). We engineers and designers use the passive components to “voice” the system. Trust me this process is very involved and time consuming. When you take the filter network away you’re going back to the raw components that should be individually tuned again. Yes, modern technology does speed up the process, but I personally feel the benefit of removing the passive components in an everyday system is rarely worth the effort/skill required.

The above statement also says nothing about the protection the passive filters provide to the drivers. That’s an entirely different topic.

I usually just recommend bi-amping the passive crossover (assuming it’s an option). This will provide better dynamics and also lets you fine tune the balance between the components without losing the protection, and voicing you paid for.

Please don’t anyone take my viewpoint as an attack. I’m only providing an industry veteran’s perspective.

 

[digicidal]

@glennQNYC - Am I to infer from that picture inclusion that you were one of the designers of the Muon?

While I would definitely agree with the general premise, and even more so specifically on the aspects regarding protection - I would add that not everyone agrees with the voicing selected by certain engineers in certain applications. And as someone who has tried both with scratch-built DIY projects - designing passive networks (especially for 3+ way designs) requires at least as much if not more expertise than spending several days running RTA sweeps and coding DSP filters.

Especially in an automotive application (where the "cabinet" is a significant variable) there are some things that can be done more easily with DSP than with a passive network... at least that's my take. Outside of that I'd tend to agree more unilaterally with your position.

 

[glennQNYC]

@glennQNYC - Am I to infer from that picture inclusion that you were one of the designers of the Muon?

While I would definitely agree with the general premise, and even more so specifically on the aspects regarding protection - I would add that not everyone agrees with the voicing selected by certain engineers in certain applications. And as someone who has tried both with scratch-built DIY projects - designing passive networks (especially for 3+ way designs) requires at least as much if not more expertise than spending several days running RTA sweeps and coding DSP filters.

Especially in an automotive application (where the "cabinet" is a significant variable) there are some things that can be done more easily with DSP than with a passive network... at least that's my take. Outside of that I'd tend to agree more unilaterally with your position.

We’re in vigorous agreement.

I’m not being definitive about staying away from scuttling the passive network; I’m just saying that it’s an expert move that has downsides to consider.

Let the record show that I played no designing or engineering role on the (truly special) KEF Muon. Sorry if I provided that implication.

 

[dazza]

It is something they already had implemented. You should have it.

Thanks I am going to give it a try.

 

[METAL]

@glennQNYC

No need to bi-amp(bridge) the channels on the K2 amp. There are two channels allocated that are pre bridged at 200w rms @4 ohms for those that want to stick with passive.

Edit: I can say though had I not went active the tweeters would have been much too bright as I am currently running my tweets -6dbs compared to the mids.

Now that I mention it, I am going to revisit my gain settings for the tweeters. They were initially lowered 6db due to the brightness, but I had since eliminated the excessive brightness issue by removing excessive frequency overlap between the tweeter and mid by setting my crossovers at 2750hz/24db slope on the mid and 4250hz/24db slope on the tweeter.

 

[Thill444]

I am a big fan of active setup for all speakers and utilizing DSP and measurement tools to tweak things to my personal liking. No question a good set of component speakers with a well designed cross over is hard to argue and the majority of people are likely much better off with this and some additional tweaking. But I went with a full active DSP setup on my GT350 and really enjoyed the control I had with each speaker and getting things tweaked to my liking. Car audio is really tricky. Small confined space, less than ideal speaker/tweeter placement, glass, etc. It's so different than home theater, but the concept of measuring and using EQ to get things to your liking is the same. Just requires patience and persistence and time and energy.

 

[METAL]

I am a big fan of active setup for all speakers and utilizing DSP and measurement tools to tweak things to my personal liking. No question a good set of component speakers with a well designed cross over is hard to argue and the majority of people are likely much better off with this and some additional tweaking. But I went with a full active DSP setup on my GT350 and really enjoyed the control I had with each speaker and getting things tweaked to my liking. Car audio is really tricky. Small confined space, less than ideal speaker/tweeter placement, glass, etc. It's so different than home theater, but the concept of measuring and using EQ to get things to your liking is the same. Just requires patience and persistence and time and energy.

Plus it's a lot of fun and is a hobby of its own for many.

 

[glennQNYC]

I am a big fan of active setup for all speakers and utilizing DSP and measurement tools to tweak things to my personal liking. No question a good set of component speakers with a well designed cross over is hard to argue and the majority of people are likely much better off with this and some additional tweaking. But I went with a full active DSP setup on my GT350 and really enjoyed the control I had with each speaker and getting things tweaked to my liking. Car audio is really tricky. Small confined space, less than ideal speaker/tweeter placement, glass, etc. It's so different than home theater, but the concept of measuring and using EQ to get things to your liking is the same. Just requires patience and persistence and time and energy.

I agree with the above. An all active setup definitely provides more control for those who can properly utilize it; and I do love the benefits of having a direct connection between driver and amplifier. I just want to warn the novices that may not realize it’s an expert move. We just want to be careful to prioritize/protect proper tone and timbre, over the benefits of dynamics and phase coherency (among others) that scuttling the passive network delivers. As I mentioned earlier- I’m not against an all-active setup for those who can take advantage of this approach.

BTW- I have substantial experience in car audio…. Somewhere I have an old picture from the mid-90s where I built a show car for SONY to display their ES system as proof my car audio bonafides, but I can’t find it right now. How about this old S Class system I did around 1999?

(sorry to thread jack)

 

[METAL]

DSP Tuning
Getting the equipment installed and working is just half the job. The next step is to dial in the system utilizing the heart of the system, the mObridge DSP.

Goal:
To fully maximize the performance of the system by using basic and advanced tuning methods for creating a desired sound stage and experince. I am a novice to this and will be learning on the go based off the sources I have been reading/watching. Once I start the process I will update this thread as I go.

Tools:
Audio Control SA-4100i Microphone
Mobile Tools by Audio Control App
Neewer Microphone Stand

Resources:
A Straightforward One-Seat Stereo Tuning Process and Some Notes About Why it Works
JL Audio - Active vs. Passive - Session 101: Crossover Network Overview
JL Audio - DSP Amplifiers - Session 201A: Basic Mobile Tune
JL Audio - DSP Amplifiers - Session 301: Advanced Tuning

Current Settings (pre tuning):

 

[Thill444]

I’ve been using REW for many years now for my home theater and car audio.

I did come across this guide not long ago and found it helpful. Might be another reference for you. Good luck and enjoy the process!

https://testgear.audiofrog.com/wp-c...Process-and-Some-Notes-About-Why-it-Works.pdf

 

[METAL]

I’ve been using REW for many years now for my home theater and car audio.

I did come across this guide not long ago and found it helpful. Might be another reference for you. Good luck and enjoy the process!

https://testgear.audiofrog.com/wp-c...Process-and-Some-Notes-About-Why-it-Works.pdf

Yes that is the same source I referenced above. It's an amazing guide by Andy W.

 

[Thill444]

Yes that is the same source I referenced above. It's an amazing guide by Andy W.

Doh! Great minds think alike. Your system looks amazing. Really top notch.

 

[digicidal]

I've used REW for quite awhile as well, nice to see the other tools you linked aslo @METAL - I'm tempted to go that route just because of the ease of use via iPad, but that mic is a bit "precious" considering I already have a calibrated UMIK and a laptop setup for RTA stuff.

If I didn't though, I'd probably just splurge the extra cash and go with the AudioControl mic myself.

 

[METAL]

Had to return and find a better mic stand. I edited the post above to reflect the stand I got. Towards the back of the photo you can see a phone mount in the cup holder so I may easily read the data from the mic.

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