Toyota GR Supra Racing Concept Officially Revealed!

[A70TTR]

correct ^

it was also cheaper and easier to make a brick shithouse motor back then. the 2J isn't exactly a super advanced design or anything, but that's part of why it was so great. btw, you can thank Yamaha for that robustness and tunability because the 2J is simply a progression of the 1J +500cc. And by involving Yamaha, a company known for racing, you're also going to get something designed to last longer at higher rpm and load.

so basically late 80s/early 90s money and materials + Yamaha = winning (1G,1JZ, 3S, 2JZ, 2ZZ, etc)

Sponsored

 

[turboflgrl]

I think he really means what he is saying. The 2JZs robustness was a fluke. The way safety margins are built into engines are much different now than they were then. But the B58 is showing to be a fairly robust engine

I don’t personally have a ton of knowledge about the B58 as compared to the 2JZ but that makes sense. I think for me it’s fear of the unknown. When you get used to something and a particular expectation whether that’s from an engine, a company, etc, it’s hard to open your eyes to something else. That and this whole Toyota/BMW partnership has seemed so out of the blue and strange from the get go. Keeping an open mind here nonetheless.

 

[A70TTR]

the B58 is one point of the car we have decent reason to believe is fairly stout. from what I have seen, it is superior to almost anything else out there atm both as far as ease of tuning and how much power it can make without breaking, especially given the price point.

I think it will end up having a pretty decent reputation overall.

 

[MA617M]

correct ^

it was also cheaper and easier to make a brick shithouse motor back then. the 2J isn't exactly a super advanced design or anything, but that's part of why it was so great. btw, you can thank Yamaha for that robustness and tunability because the 2J is simply a progression of the 1J +500cc. And by involving Yamaha, a company known for racing, you're also going to get something designed to last longer at higher rpm and load.

so basically late 80s/early 90s money and materials + Yamaha = winning (1G,1JZ, 3S, 2JZ, 2ZZ, etc)

You forgot 7M

But yes, in terms of efficiency and design... the 2JZ is not a good motor. It's just tough and you can fill it with boost.

 

[A70TTR]

oh, there's a reason that red-headed stepchild wasn't included...

I also left out the 4AG because reasons...

 

[SupraFiend]

lol. But to be fair, the 2jz is the successor to the 7m and part of the reason the JZ line is as good as it is (and that it was made in the first place), is because of all of the issues the 7m had, most of which are legacy related (cylinder spacing, bearing journal widths, head gasket design). A 7m is a stroked 5m, which is a bored 4m, which is a stroked and bored 1m etc.

Yeah, I reckon that would make sense as to what he was talking about.

As far as pricing goes, the cost of the Supra did go up over the years, however there was actually a big price drop in 97. The 1998 Supra Turbo sold for $40,508, only $600 more than the MSRP for the 1993 Turbo.

Jeff

Yeah and they got sued for it too. I don't know if we ever even saw that price drop or if it only lasted 1 year or what. I saw a new mk4 TT fully loaded on the showroom floor here in 98, it was $80k CDN at the time which seemed insane.

 

[kensin]

The new mkv should be priced accordingly to the targeted demographic. We can guess ? Thats its going to be priced around 50~60k usd ? Or maybe little more

 

[PerformanceSound]

I can’t help but think he’s saying this because it’s a BMW engine and already aware it doesn’t have near the reliability of the 2J (not shocking but surprised at the admission here). In other words, this engine didn’t have the same care concerning reliability (and therefore tunability) that went into the 2J so..... enjoy the driving experience while it lasts. Sounds exactly like BMW’s mentality - all about the driving experience no matter how fleeting it might be. Maybe I’m being too pessimistic and looking too far into this statement but it stuck out to me.

I think he really means what he is saying. The 2JZs robustness was a fluke. The way safety margins are built into engines are much different now than they were then. But the B58 is showing to be a fairly robust engine

I have preached this many many times in previous posts and everyone laughed and criticized me. The MKIV Supra is legendary now because of the drive train....period! I build 2JZ's on the side, and am building one now for my own personal project and every time I crack open these engines, it amazes me just how well built and solid the architecture is. I will agree that much of the durability of these cars comes from the fact that forced induction technology in the 90's was mediocre at best, and everything had to be strengthened to handle discrepancies in boost and electronic failures (i.e., over boosting, elevation changes, etc...). However, to say this was a fluke is down right ridiculous! The 2JZ was designed for forced induction from the ground up....to be able to withstand the most extreme failures of a twin-turbocharged application. Only then, would the car be de-tuned and sold to consumers for ultra reliable use. I agree with both of you about the statement being made to justify potential reliability concerns for the MKV. This was why I wish Toyota would have left the Supra name alone for another generation, because "IF" the BMW drive train ends up disappointing everyone....it will drag the Supra name down with it.

 

[SupraFiend]

Watcha talking about...

As for the comment about a fluke, the dude meant there is no way in hell they intentionally designed the 2jzgte so it could withstand 1000whp with stock internals. That was not a design consideration, yet it does (for up to a single drag race season anyways).

 

[A70TTR]

lol. But to be fair, the 2jz is the successor to the 7m and part of the reason the JZ line is as good as it is (and that it was made in the first place), is because of all of the issues the 7m had, most of which are legacy related (cylinder spacing, bearing journal widths, head gasket design). A 7m is a stroked 5m, which is a bored 4m, which is a stroked and bored 1m etc.

I agree that they learned a lot from the issues experienced with the 7M, but unfortunately that motor is what it is and I've never been much of a fan. The rest of the M series is pretty storied and respected however.

 

[turboflgrl]

This was why I wish Toyota would have left the Supra name alone for another generation, because "IF" the BMW drive train ends up disappointing everyone....it will drag the Supra name down with it.

Exactly where my hesitations are with the MKV right now. When you think of the MKIV, reliability, crazy boosting ability, and almost unlimited possibilities come to mind. Each gen of the Supra has built on the last (some more than others).... any kind of regression from that standard would be detrimental to the Supra name and legacy.

I really hope I’m wrong and the B58 ends up at least being comparable in reliability in stock form but BMW’s track record for that isn’t too great either.

 

[PerformanceSound]

Exactly where my hesitations are with the MKV right now. When you think of the MKIV, reliability, crazy boosting ability, and almost unlimited possibilities come to mind.

The main reasons I'm cramming a 2JZ in a 300ZX engine bay. I truly don't believe Toyota has realized the audience or market for this car. I feel like they are catering to the ricer boys out there....no one cares about Rocket Bunny Supra's and 30ft high rear spoilers. We care about reliable platforms that can handle boost....period. Nissan figured this out with the GTR, why can't Toyota? Nissan made a V6 engine so stout, it can withstand 1000hp on stock bottom-end with the GTR. With the Z, Nissan came back with a CD009 6spd that can withstand 1000hp. I am still trying to stay positive, because I still believe that a Supra name means more than pretty lipstick and heels. I will say this though....this car will make or break Toyota's reputation in the sports car world. I also will say, that the Lexus brand will probably end up incorporating a unbelievable drive train soon in their F cars.

 

[Modal170]

The main reasons I'm cramming a 2JZ in a 300ZX engine bay. I truly don't believe Toyota has realized the audience or market for this car. I feel like they are catering to the ricer boys out there....no one cares about Rocket Bunny Supra's and 30ft high rear spoilers. We care about reliable platforms that can handle boost....period. Nissan figured this out with the GTR, why can't Toyota? Nissan made a V6 engine so stout, it can withstand 1000hp on stock bottom-end with the GTR. With the Z, Nissan came back with a CD009 6spd that can withstand 1000hp. I am still trying to stay positive, because I still believe that a Supra name means more than pretty lipstick and heels. I will say this though....this car will make or break Toyota's reputation in the sports car world. I also will say, that the Lexus brand will probably end up incorporating a unbelievable drive train soon in their F cars.

When all the lexus department carries previous generations of the supra development, made the lc and almost took the 86 into their own before being told by Toyota no suggest they are on the verge of genius.

The only thing I want them to do is shed weight, like 500 pounds on all their cars while keeping the power and handling and boom, they would cause a huge change in handling and acceleration.

That would have them give the luxury comfort with the performance to beat rivals of BMW and Audi,

 

[PerformanceSound]

When all the lexus department carries previous generations of the supra development, made the lc and almost took the 86 into their own before being told by Toyota no suggest they are on the verge of genius.

I always look back at this picture and think, "the LFA was in fact the modern rendition of the Supra." The same top engineers who developed all their previous halo cars joined together to build perfection. I wish this was the Supra, and that V10 was a modernized bullet proof TT straight six.

That scale model looks an awful lot like a MKIV Supra.

 

[SupraFiend]

Yup. There is so much Supra in the LFA. Love that car and almost all the decisions made in its design, except with the pricing and production limits. I wish they had gone the route of the GTR for the market segment they were targeting. If they had gone steel or aluminum body, and put their R&D into a 3JZ or more economical engine, they could have sold that sucker as a 80 to 100k Supra to compete with the GTR. I know Toyota still feels burned about the last Supra as it priced itself out of its own market, but like the great painters, the car became such a legend after it went out of production, the public would have no trouble accepting it playing in that market place now. They should really pay attention to the fact that to this day jza80s are still selling at essentially the original MSRP price range of the car.

Sponsored