Have a look at the Prototype Supra's engine

[PerformanceSound]

The Zx6 86/BRZ has a healthy dose of Toyota and Subaru all over it even though most parts say Subaru - including the transmission. The transmission which is Toyota/Aisin and was first used in the 1998 Altezza (J160). The engine, while a Subaru-based flat-4 was not used in any Subaru vehicles before the BRZ, and uses the Toyota D-4S injection system and cylinder heads (I'm sure Toyota helped write/tune the ECU too, even though it is a Subaru/Denso unit). The differential is lifted directly from the Lexus IS250/300.

There are a lot of Subaru parts-bin parts on that car, and there are obviously Toyota-designed parts with Subaru stamps all over them. It doesn't quite feel like a Toyota when you sit in it, but it definitely doesn't feel like a Subaru. I suspect the Supra will be a similar situation, albeit with a bit more similarities in the drivetrain between the models and a bit less in the body/interior.

I am well aware of the fact that you're only in it for the powertrain, PerformanceSound; as such, I honestly doubt there is much on the car for you. Maybe the engine, but it will be a modern package, not an easy to grab and throw into anything setup that the 2JZ was.

Jeff

Well put Jeff!...and quite honestly, your right, this car probably won’t have much for me as I believe wholeheartedly in “spare no expense” engineering and manufacturing. That is why I am looking at other cars. It’s too bad really, I truly believed that Toyota was going to build a real successor to the mighty MKIV. I should have known better...oh well, I didn’t lose anything in this process right?

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[PerformanceSound]

You see, you're thinking about the manufacturing. You're not thinking about the car. Subaru has never, and will never make a car like the 86 by themselves. They lacked the engineering know-how and dynamic understanding to do so. Toyota made the car with them and contracted them to manufacture it.

Subaru is stamped everywhere on that car and yet it shares no driving characteristic similar to a single other Subaru ever made, yet somehow drives significantly like a litany of Toyota cars. That's the difference.

Well, isn’t it because it’s not AWD that it doesn’t drive like a Subaru? I mean, it sure as heck sounds like a Subaru...

 

[Guff]

Well, isn’t it because it’s not AWD that it doesn’t drive like a Subaru? I mean, it sure as heck sounds like a Subaru...

O, Let me list the ways:

-Front end/turn-in response
-Road handling/damping control
-Steady state/mid corner neutrality
-Throttle control
-throttle tuning
-Steering feel
-Steering rate
-Bump Steer characteristics
-Dynamic toe change under compression
-Predictability
-Throttle steer characteristics

the list goes on and on and on and on and on

 

[Guff]

And that's all under the limit. At/above the limit, its an entirely different galaxy from any Subaru.

 

[PerformanceSound]

O, Let me list the ways:

-Front end/turn-in response
-Road handling/damping control
-Steady state/mid corner neutrality
-Throttle control
-throttle tuning
-Steering feel
-Steering rate
-Bump Steer characteristics
-Dynamic toe change under compression
-Predictability
-Throttle steer characteristics

the list goes on and on and on and on and on

Again, aren’t all the above a byproduct of the car not being AWD? Some of what you listed couldn’t even happen with a AWD setup, no?

 

[Guff]

Again, aren’t all the above a byproduct of the car not being AWD? Some of what you listed couldn’t even happen with a AWD setup, no?

These are not the byproduct of not being AWD. But they are things that could be an on an AWD vehicle.

Subaru does not make vehicles that have the 86s characteristics. And if you took a WRX or STi and removed the front drive, it would not turn it into an 86. I have driven RWD STis, they generally are awful.

On the other hand, a car that I have driven extensively and I know that shares a lot of the great things I listed above is the Nissan GTR. That car uses an entirely different approach to the 86, and uses AWD, but yet somehow retains great feel, fantastic balance, and a chassis that has great throttle steer-ability and is sweet at the limit.

There is almost zero relation between a GTR and an 86, yet certain characteristics about both of those cars shine through, because that is how they were designed. There is also plenty different about the car, no doubt, but yet somehow when I drive the GTR and 86 back to back, I find myself making more connections than when I drive a WRX and 86 back to back.

That's the crazy thing about the car world, there's absolutely nothing binary about it. Cars have so many moving parts that are so individually tuned that cars that are from completely separate segments and ideologies can share values and characteristics. And cars made in the same city by the same people can somehow feel like the engineers of each respective project never even knew each other existed.

 

[aeronSUPRAco]

4-cylinder Supra for 46k or the I6 for 46? Hmm

It would be nice to see the I6 be priced at $46k. That would make Toyota competitive(against Mustang, Camaro). $55k is acceptable; but the fact is it is already in the Corvette price range, making the Japanese more expensive. Almost similar to buying two 86 or one Supra for the same money.

 

[BRZer86]

These are not the byproduct of not being AWD. But they are things that could be an on an AWD vehicle.

Subaru does not make vehicles that have the 86s characteristics. And if you took a WRX or STi and removed the front drive, it would not turn it into an 86. I have driven RWD STis, they generally are awful.

On the other hand, a car that I have driven extensively and I know that shares a lot of the great things I listed above is the Nissan GTR. That car uses an entirely different approach to the 86, and uses AWD, but yet somehow retains great feel, fantastic balance, and a chassis that has great throttle steer-ability and is sweet at the limit.

There is almost zero relation between a GTR and an 86, yet certain characteristics about both of those cars shine through, because that is how they were designed. There is also plenty different about the car, no doubt, but yet somehow when I drive the GTR and 86 back to back, I find myself making more connections than when I drive a WRX and 86 back to back.

That's the crazy thing about the car world, there's absolutely nothing binary about it. Cars have so many moving parts that are so individually tuned that cars that are from completely separate segments and ideologies can share values and characteristics. And cars made in the same city by the same people can somehow feel like the engineers of each respective project never even knew each other existed.

Guff, just stop. You’re not going to convince Johnnie Cochran. You can’t dumb it down anymore than you already have across numerous posts.

In a perfect world, any collaboration across auto manufacturers is required to be a mere 50/50 split when it comes to R&D for the masses to accept a revival of a legendary sports car that has yet to be released.

 

[PerformanceSound]

Guff, just stop. You’re not going to convince Johnnie Cochran. You can’t dumb it down anymore than you already have across numerous posts.

In a perfect world, any collaboration across auto manufacturers is required to be a mere 50/50 split when it comes to R&D for the masses to accept a revival of a legendary sports car that has yet to be released.

I’ll have the last laugh when the media does a number on this car...

 

[Guff]

I'm afraid I don't think I'll ever stop preaching the gospel of driving dynamics. It's really an entirely different world and flips one's own perception of cars on its head. I've driven so many cars that were so vastly different from my expectations after seeing their "on-paper performance/specs". And I really can't stop stressing to everyone to do the same. We find so many ways to pick apart cars with our keyboards, that its no surprise that the entire sports car segment is dying. People are content with putting so many cars into these imaginary boxes and packing them away in their minds, that so many fantastic cars get overlooked because the internet said they were "too slow" or "unreliable" or "cars that can't turn" etc etc.

I know so many 86/Miata/S2k owners that laugh at the idea of a Hellcat, but having driven one, you can't help but feel overjoyed having access to that much performance in such an easy to drive package, and makes you really appreciate the engineering that went into controlling such a powerhouse. Vice versa, I know plenty of Supra/Mustang/Viper guys who laugh at the concept of a Miata or 86, but the approachable performance and superb balance of those cars is something that not only is extremely enjoyable, but also helps you grow significantly as a driver.

These are things that horsepower and torque figures can't tell you, and in many cases are things that are even difficult for me to describe to you. But the act of driving and experiencing those cars is so enlightening that you can't help but feel like there's this hidden world behind the entire concept of automobiles and all you ever had to do was get off of your computer and go drive.

 

[MA617M]

I loved my 86. Was brilliant fun at the track. Not the fastest thing ever but it was heaps of fun.

 

[Jdmuscle]

I'm afraid I don't think I'll ever stop preaching the gospel of driving dynamics. It's really an entirely different world and flips one's own perception of cars on its head. I've driven so many cars that were so vastly different from my expectations after seeing their "on-paper performance/specs". And I really can't stop stressing to everyone to do the same. We find so many ways to pick apart cars with our keyboards, that its no surprise that the entire sports car segment is dying. People are content with putting so many cars into these imaginary boxes and packing them away in their minds, that so many fantastic cars get overlooked because the internet said they were "too slow" or "unreliable" or "cars that can't turn" etc etc.

I know so many 86/Miata/S2k owners that laugh at the idea of a Hellcat, but having driven one, you can't help but feel overjoyed having access to that much performance in such an easy to drive package, and makes you really appreciate the engineering that went into controlling such a powerhouse. Vice versa, I know plenty of Supra/Mustang/Viper guys who laugh at the concept of a Miata or 86, but the approachable performance and superb balance of those cars is something that not only is extremely enjoyable, but also helps you grow significantly as a driver.

These are things that horsepower and torque figures can't tell you, and in many cases are things that are even difficult for me to describe to you. But the act of driving and experiencing those cars is so enlightening that you can't help but feel like there's this hidden world behind the entire concept of automobiles and all you ever had to do was get off of your computer and go drive.

I tell everyone the same.. balance is key. Regardless of power. Owning a NB Miata opened my eyes and introduced me to the magical beauty of balance. However the social stigma keeps that car away from so many people. They never even give that car a chance.

 

[MLG Tofu Shop]

I'm afraid I don't think I'll ever stop preaching the gospel of driving dynamics. It's really an entirely different world and flips one's own perception of cars on its head. I've driven so many cars that were so vastly different from my expectations after seeing their "on-paper performance/specs". And I really can't stop stressing to everyone to do the same. We find so many ways to pick apart cars with our keyboards, that its no surprise that the entire sports car segment is dying. People are content with putting so many cars into these imaginary boxes and packing them away in their minds, that so many fantastic cars get overlooked because the internet said they were "too slow" or "unreliable" or "cars that can't turn" etc etc.

I know so many 86/Miata/S2k owners that laugh at the idea of a Hellcat, but having driven one, you can't help but feel overjoyed having access to that much performance in such an easy to drive package, and makes you really appreciate the engineering that went into controlling such a powerhouse. Vice versa, I know plenty of Supra/Mustang/Viper guys who laugh at the concept of a Miata or 86, but the approachable performance and superb balance of those cars is something that not only is extremely enjoyable, but also helps you grow significantly as a driver.

These are things that horsepower and torque figures can't tell you, and in many cases are things that are even difficult for me to describe to you. But the act of driving and experiencing those cars is so enlightening that you can't help but feel like there's this hidden world behind the entire concept of automobiles and all you ever had to do was get off of your computer and go drive.

I can't agree more. No matter how fast a FWD hot hatch is around a racetrack, it's still based on an economy car, the driving feel is nowhere near the performance cars with dedicated platforms, which is why I think FWD Nurburgring lap records are very pointless.

 

[Guff]

I tell everyone the same.. balance is key. Regardless of power. Owning a NB Miata opened my eyes and introduced me to the magical beauty of balance. However the social stigma keeps that car away from so many people. They never even give that car a chance.

Absolutely!

You know what's interesting, the Viper that you own is such a brilliantly dynamic vehicle and yet it still carries a lingering stigma for being this brash deathtrap. When in reality, many people who's opinions I value greatly say the total opposite. They say the Viper is like a big, powerful Miata. Adjustable, balanced, a sweetheart at the limit. I personally haven't had the opportunity yet to drive a current gen Viper, but I still find it amazing that such an incorrect perception of the car can remain, all because some people on the internet refused to change their opinions.

Drive everything you can get your hands on guyss! I've found cars to be more conversational than people. Far more entertaining too!

 

[aeronSUPRAco]

I loved my 86. Was brilliant fun at the track. Not the fastest thing ever but it was heaps of fun.

The 86 is never about being powerful. It’s about good handling, stiffness, and the overall feel and thrill driving the car. That’s what’s most important.

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