Have a look at the Prototype Supra's engine

[Guff]

I can't agree more. No matter how fast a FWD hot hatch is around a racetrack, it's still based on an economy car, the driving feel is nowhere near the performance cars with dedicated platforms, which is why I think FWD Nurburgring lap records are very pointless.

On the flipside of that, some of my favorite cars of all time are the EG/EK Civics. I have driven well prepped EGs that I would gladly take over some of the Supras I've owned.

I will also fight vehemently against anyone who claims Front-Wheel drive is "wrong-wheel drive". FWD offers its own balance, its own driving style, and its own joy in driving. If you made me choose a bone stock DC2 Integra Type R and the 94 Supra I just sold, I would take the Integra in a heartbeat. The Supra made over 700hp at the wheels, was a blast to drive, but I know for a fact that I would have more fun in the Integra.

I actually only own one "forever car" and its not one of the "cooler" cars most people think. Throughout all the amazing RWD and AWD cars that I've owned, the one car that I will give to my kids, the one car I will genuinely cherish and treat as a part of my own family, is a rinky-dink FWD 1960 Morris Mini Cooper. There is very little in the world that makes me as happy as that car does.

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[PerformanceSound]

I'm afraid I don't think I'll ever stop preaching the gospel of driving dynamics. It's really an entirely different world and flips one's own perception of cars on its head. I've driven so many cars that were so vastly different from my expectations after seeing their "on-paper performance/specs". And I really can't stop stressing to everyone to do the same. We find so many ways to pick apart cars with our keyboards, that its no surprise that the entire sports car segment is dying. People are content with putting so many cars into these imaginary boxes and packing them away in their minds, that so many fantastic cars get overlooked because the internet said they were "too slow" or "unreliable" or "cars that can't turn" etc etc.

I know so many 86/Miata/S2k owners that laugh at the idea of a Hellcat, but having driven one, you can't help but feel overjoyed having access to that much performance in such an easy to drive package, and makes you really appreciate the engineering that went into controlling such a powerhouse. Vice versa, I know plenty of Supra/Mustang/Viper guys who laugh at the concept of a Miata or 86, but the approachable performance and superb balance of those cars is something that not only is extremely enjoyable, but also helps you grow significantly as a driver.

These are things that horsepower and torque figures can't tell you, and in many cases are things that are even difficult for me to describe to you. But the act of driving and experiencing those cars is so enlightening that you can't help but feel like there's this hidden world behind the entire concept of automobiles and all you ever had to do was get off of your computer and go drive.

Guff, why are you assuming I don't know what a good sports car consists of? Just throwing fancy "racing terms" around doesn't mean anything to the everyday driver or potential buyer of these cars. I've owned many sports cars....I've had many popular Japanese sports cars in high school (Z32, S13, Turbo II's, etc...) before anyone even knew what Japanese sports cars were. I've built several motors, and was even a guinea pig (literally was on a waiting list) for alot of first gen cars when they first came out (IS350, 350Z, GS430, etc...). It's this real world experience that has taught me so much about quality vs. business. I owned a 350Z for one year, and sold it because I hated so much about it (quality wise)....and wouldn't you know it, I got back into a Z32 last year because 27yrs later, I still feel that a 1991 Nissan Z is a better quality car than it's "successor." I don't need to hide behind a keyboard to give my real world experience of a car or to "run my mouth." You assume everyone is buying this car to go through an Apex at 120mph, or to run it in a Gran Turismo circuit. I'm here to tell you, that's not the case. The people who will buy this car, are the same people who bought the Nissan 350Z thinking it was going to be a 300ZX....or the people who bought the RX-8 thinking it was going to be a RX-7, and they will be running them in the streets the vast majority of times where they won't even know what over-steer or under-steer even feels like. There are high expectations for this car to be like a MKIV Supra, not as a track star, but as a everyday; reliable, durable, tuneable, long lasting, sportscar from Toyota. Unfortunately, the company Toyota has decided to pair up with doesn't exactly have a stellar record for any of the above I mentioned.

You and Ryley and whoever can joke all you want, but like I said before....when the car is released, I will be the first one there to say "I told you so."

 

[Guff]

Guff, why are you assuming I don't know what a good sports car consists of? Just throwing fancy "racing terms" around doesn't mean anything to the everyday driver or potential buyer of these cars. I've owned many sports cars....I've had many popular Japanese sports cars in high school (Z32, S13, Turbo II's, etc...) before anyone even knew what Japanese sports cars were. I've built several motors, and was even a guinea pig (literally was on a waiting list) for alot of first gen cars when they first came out (IS350, 350Z, GS430, etc...). It's this real world experience that has taught me so much about quality vs. business. I owned a 350Z for one year, and sold it because I hated so much about it (quality wise)....and wouldn't you know it, I got back into a Z32 last year because 27yrs later, I still feel that a 1991 Nissan Z is a better quality car than it's "successor." I don't need to hide behind a keyboard to give my real world experience of a car or to "run my mouth." You assume everyone is buying this car to go through an Apex at 120mph, or to run it in a Gran Turismo circuit. I'm here to tell you, that's not the case. The people who will buy this car, are the same people who bought the Nissan 350Z thinking it was going to be a 300ZX....or the people who bought the RX-8 thinking it was going to be a RX-7, and they will be running them in the streets the vast majority of times where they won't even know what over-steer or under-steer even feels like. There are high expectations for this car to be like a MKIV Supra, not as a track star, but as a everyday; reliable, durable, tuneable, long lasting, sportscar from Toyota. Unfortunately, the company Toyota has decided to pair up with doesn't exactly have a stellar record for any of the above I mentioned.

You and Ryley and whoever can joke all you want, but like I said before....when the car is released, I will be the first one there to say "I told you so."

I apologize if I came across as implying such a thing, that's not what my intention was. My intention is purely to explain why the 86, among many other cars, does a great job of transcending its own "face-value", if that makes sense. I'm not saying that the Zupra will do the same, I really have no way of knowing. But I am saying that we certainly can't discount it as such.

And for what it's worth, I do agree with you on the majority of your point. BMW certainly doesn't have the best record in my eyes either, and they make cars that are generally very different from Toyotas. But from what I've seen from Tada-san, his passion for Toyota, his understanding of Toyota's historic marques, his first-hand experience with the A80, I can't help but feel that the engineering team at Toyota understands exactly what we're feeling and thinking, and are actively trying to address it.

 

[PerformanceSound]

I apologize if I came across as implying such a thing, that's not what my intention was. My intention is purely to explain why the 86, among many other cars, does a great job of transcending its own "face-value", if that makes sense. I'm not saying that the Zupra will do the same, I really have no way of knowing. But I am saying that we certainly can't discount it as such.

And for what it's worth, I do agree with you on the majority of your point. BMW certainly doesn't have the best record in my eyes either, and they make cars that are generally very different from Toyotas. But from what I've seen from Tada-san, his passion for Toyota, his understanding of Toyota's historic marques, his first-hand experience with the A80, I can't help but feel that the engineering team at Toyota understands exactly what we're feeling and thinking, and are actively trying to address it.

I really hope so....I truly do. As much as I sound negative on this forum, I sincerely hope that Tada San had his way on the "important" side of things on this car. As for the 86/BRZ, I don't mean no one cares about them as in they are junk. No....actually, I do like the the 86/BRZ because although they are a collaboration built car, they are pure Japanese cars. Even though Toyota designed the car, the fact that it's produced by a high-quality manufacturer like Fuji Heavy Industries, gives the buyer alot of confidence in the purchase....regardless of price. I know several folks on here are more concerned about the aesthetics and the badging, but....my personal experience is that marketing is very deceptive in the auto industry. They love using big names to move products only to taint their reputation. Again, I just hope that's not the case here....because although I am pretty sure I won't be buying this car....I still have a love for Supra's deep down and would like to see the next gen succeed.

 

[MLG Tofu Shop]

On the flipside of that, some of my favorite cars of all time are the EG/EK Civics. I have driven well prepped EGs that I would gladly take over some of the Supras I've owned.

I will also fight vehemently against anyone who claims Front-Wheel drive is "wrong-wheel drive". FWD offers its own balance, its own driving style, and its own joy in driving. If you made me choose a bone stock DC2 Integra Type R and the 94 Supra I just sold, I would take the Integra in a heartbeat. The Supra made over 700hp at the wheels, was a blast to drive, but I know for a fact that I would have more fun in the Integra.

I actually only own one "forever car" and its not one of the "cooler" cars most people think. Throughout all the amazing RWD and AWD cars that I've owned, the one car that I will give to my kids, the one car I will genuinely cherish and treat as a part of my own family, is a rinky-dink FWD 1960 Morris Mini Cooper. There is very little in the world that makes me as happy as that car does.

I'm talking about the current fwd cars, not the old ones. What I mean is modern fwd hot hatch compete with each other to see who has the fastest lap time around Nurburgring rather than which one is more enjoyable.

I'm not bad mouthing the fwd cars from back in the day, especially the ones you stated. Heck, the DC2 ITR is one of the cars I really want to own but my country doesn't have it.

To conclude my thoughts, I don't hate fwd cars. What I hate is how car manufacturers these days prioritise on-paper performance instead of that fun to drive feel with these types of cars. For example an FK8 CTR is not as fun as an EK9 CTR, even though the FK8 is way faster than the EK9. Hopefully you understand what I mean.

 

[MLG Tofu Shop]

I'm still more curious about how the new Supra is able to have a lower CoG than the 86. The battery placed under the boot/trunk isn't enough to greatly lower the CoG. Maybe a dry sump? But that is quite expensive. Carbon fiber roof?

There is a car that has a really low CoG, it's the Alfa Romeo 4C, but that car is basically a carbon fiber go kart with a car body. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa_Romeo_4C

 

[Guff]

I'm still more curious about how the new Supra is able to have a lower CoG than the 86. The battery placed under the boot/trunk isn't enough to greatly lower the CoG. Maybe a dry sump? But that is quite expensive. Carbon fiber roof?

There is a car that has a really low CoG, it's the Alfa Romeo 4C, but that car is basically a carbon fiber go kart with a car body. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa_Romeo_4C

Honestly, I haven't the slightest clue.

 

[MLG Tofu Shop]

Honestly, I haven't the slightest clue.

Forgive me but this gif is too funny.

 

[tha7osavage]

I'm afraid I don't think I'll ever stop preaching the gospel of driving dynamics. It's really an entirely different world and flips one's own perception of cars on its head. I've driven so many cars that were so vastly different from my expectations after seeing their "on-paper performance/specs". And I really can't stop stressing to everyone to do the same. We find so many ways to pick apart cars with our keyboards, that its no surprise that the entire sports car segment is dying. People are content with putting so many cars into these imaginary boxes and packing them away in their minds, that so many fantastic cars get overlooked because the internet said they were "too slow" or "unreliable" or "cars that can't turn" etc etc.

I know so many 86/Miata/S2k owners that laugh at the idea of a Hellcat, but having driven one, you can't help but feel overjoyed having access to that much performance in such an easy to drive package, and makes you really appreciate the engineering that went into controlling such a powerhouse. Vice versa, I know plenty of Supra/Mustang/Viper guys who laugh at the concept of a Miata or 86, but the approachable performance and superb balance of those cars is something that not only is extremely enjoyable, but also helps you grow significantly as a driver.

These are things that horsepower and torque figures can't tell you, and in many cases are things that are even difficult for me to describe to you. But the act of driving and experiencing those cars is so enlightening that you can't help but feel like there's this hidden world behind the entire concept of automobiles and all you ever had to do was get off of your computer and go drive.

 

[SupraStew85]

Again, aren’t all the above a byproduct of the car not being AWD? Some of what you listed couldn’t even happen with a AWD setup, no?

As somebody who has owned and driven the fastest factory version of a wrx (1997 JDM STI) I feel like I can comment on this.
I can confirm that it isn't anything mind blowing around corners when you get beyond the neck snapping acceleration that comes with having a fairly high boost turbo setup in such a light all wheel drive chassis. I have also had the opportunity to ride in a rear wheel drive converted STI, and my god that chassis is just about the furthest thing from balanced a person could get. By removing the front drive just seems to intensify its shortcomings within the chassis. Subarus "performance cars" are cool in their own way, but just not my bag of beans so to speak (this is strictly from a non utilitarian enthusiast position).

I truthfully have had far more fun in my Supra that was twice the age and 1/2 the power of that WRX. But a much more sorted chassis and suspention setup goes such a long way for overall enjoyment. It also helps that I have beaten on that 33 year old Toyota mercilessly for nearly 5 years without any issues...I have yet to find somebody with a wrx or sti that can say the same.

 

[MA617M]

Let's not forget that the A60 suspension was largely interfered with by lotus too

 

[SupraStew85]

Let's not forget that the A60 suspension was largely interfered with by lotus too

I do miss having my original stock suspension from time to time, unreal combined with that long wheelbase for highway comfort. But HOOOOOLY is it ever soft. Just look up some adds for mk2's from back in the day the body roll is unreal

 

[boodjohn]

Okay Toyota throw us another bone.

Toyota blue balling its own community members which leads to more speculations which then leads "conversations."

Come on, Toyota - I'm thirsty.

 

[Jdmuscle]

Absolutely!

You know what's interesting, the Viper that you own is such a brilliantly dynamic vehicle and yet it still carries a lingering stigma for being this brash deathtrap. When in reality, many people who's opinions I value greatly say the total opposite. They say the Viper is like a big, powerful Miata. Adjustable, balanced, a sweetheart at the limit. I personally haven't had the opportunity yet to drive a current gen Viper, but I still find it amazing that such an incorrect perception of the car can remain, all because some people on the internet refused to change their opinions.

Drive everything you can get your hands on guyss! I've found cars to be more conversational than people. Far more entertaining too!

GenV Viper is absolutely a slightly larger Miata. I can go 10/10 anytime and it’ll go exactly where I point it. No drama. C7Z that I have on the other hand is all over the place. Lol

 

[Leeky]

the Zupra

LOL This is brilliant. Why have I not thought about this already?

Its just like how the 86/BRZ were referred to as the "Toyburu".

The Zupra.... classic

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