2021 F1 season prediction Challenge! - With Prize From APEX Race Parts!

Dannyvandelft

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uh...im going to need a little more than one washed up driver from one team complaining on pure speculation that a tire change happened to suit the two teams that were kicking his ass.

thanks for the link though. I wasnt aware of a 2018 change of any kind tbh. Kind of ironic though, he bitched about the tires then, and then voted to go back to them in 2019...when he was getting his ass kicked again. Lol

this link came from an embed in your article:

https://www.racefans.net/2018/04/07/incredible-f1-lap-times-prompt-pirelli-change-tread-depths/
The fact he's washed up has nothing to do with the fact that they did change them.
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KurtP

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The fact he's washed up has nothing to do with the fact that they did change them.
but it has a lot to do with why he wanted them changed and then wanted them back the year later. He also accuses redbull of pushing for the change, but theres no evidence either team did so.

is there any evidence either team did? If so, is that kind of lobbying prohibited? And if they did, what does that have to do with FIA rulings?
 

Dannyvandelft

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but it has a lot to do with why he wanted them changed and then wanted them back the year later. He also accuses redbull of pushing for the change, but theres no evidence either team did so.

is there any evidence either team did? If so, is that kind of lobbying prohibited? And if they did, what does that have to do with FIA rulings?
Because FIA rulings always happen in Mercedes' favor. Ferrari got too close, neuter their engine. Change the tires. Mercedes introduced DAS even though the rules say you can't change the suspension geometry? Allowed. Red Bull's car passed FIA regulations, but they'll change them mid season and who benefits from that? Mercedes.
Hamilton goes outside track limits 29 times in Bahrain? Perfectly fine. Verstappen does 3 times, loses win, pole, and fastest lap. Starting to see a pattern yet?
 

Dannyvandelft

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Soo... Merc & RB Ganged up and only one is being accused?? kinda like "Bonnie & Clyde robbed the bank but Bonnie is OK to rob bank because she is a women"... Love is blind.. :D
Red Bull wasn't the threat then, Ferrari was. The enemy of my enemy, is my friend.
 

KurtP

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Because FIA rulings always happen in Mercedes' favor. Ferrari got too close, neuter their engine. Change the tires. Mercedes introduced DAS even though the rules say you can't change the suspension geometry? Allowed. Red Bull's car passed FIA regulations, but they'll change them mid season and who benefits from that? Mercedes.
Hamilton goes outside track limits 29 times in Bahrain? Perfectly fine. Verstappen does 3 times, loses win, pole, and fastest lap. Starting to see a pattern yet?
nope. I dont see a pattern.

-They specified in Bahrain during the driver brief what the track limits were going to be, and what you could and couldnt do in the expanded/modified track limit. Hamilton didnt break the guidance, Verstapen did.

-ferrari developed an active and intentional cheat to fuel flow monitoring systems put in place to all teams, and lied about the amount of fuel they were flowing and got caught. Rbr lead that protest, not mercedes. (although i do believe Mercedes signed on)

-Pirelli changed the tires, not mercedes, and no one can show a single point where mercedes attempted or did undue influence on pirelli for that change, and ferrari accused rbr of it too. Then sided with rbr to demand the tires back in 2019. Sounds to me like they cant set up down force well.

-re: DAS. It wasnt cheating. It was innovative. It was rules based on function to be part of the steering system- from the fia:
“As a general conclusion, it is very simple to conclude DAS would be illegal if it were not part of the steering system,” the stewards said in a statement. “So the main challenge and debate has to be on whether it can be considered to be part of the steering system. The stewards decide that DAS is a part of the steering system.

“Therefore the Stewards consider DAS to be a legitimate part of the steering system and hence to satisfy the relevant regulations regarding suspension or aerodynamic influence.”

In their decision, the stewards said that DAS uses the same hydraulically-assisted power steering system that the conventional steering does, acting on the track rod.
had fia been in the bag for mercedes, they wouldnt have then made a specific rule to ban it beginning the next season.

seems to me like mercedes is just better. And again, im a Riccardo/McLaren fan....but it just sits zay zee aye em gee iz deh fastess, jah?
 
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Dannyvandelft

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nope. I dont see a pattern.

-They specified in Bahrain what the rules were going to be for track limits were going to be. Hamilton didnt break the guidance, Verstapen did.

-ferrari developed an active and intentional cheat to fuel flow monitoring systems put in place to all teams, and lied about the amount of fuel they were flowing and got caught. Rbr lead that protest, not mercedes. (although i do believe Mercedes signed on)

-Pirelli changed the tires, not mercedes, and no one can show a single point where mercedes attempted or did undue influence on pirelli for that change, and ferrari accused rbr of it too. Then sided with rbr to demand the tires back in 2019. Sounds to me like they cant set up down force well.

-re: DAS. It wasnt cheating. It was innovative. It was rules based on function to be part of the steering system- from the fia: had fia been in the bag for mercedes, they wouldnt have then made a specific rule to ban it beginning the next season.

seems to me like mercedes is just better. And again, im a Riccardo/McLaren fan....but it just sits zay zee aye em gee iz deh fastess, jah?
Mercedes is better, no denying that. It would just be nice if they made a set of rules, and stuck to them. Tire rules, track limit rules, bodywork rules, you name it. A car that's legal in March, should still be legal in June. The whole track has a white line around the edge. Over with 4 wheels is out, 1 wheel inside is in. It's really not that complicated.
 

KurtP

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Mercedes is better, no denying that. It would just be nice if they made a set of rules, and stuck to them. Tire rules, track limit rules, bodywork rules, you name it. A car that's legal in March, should still be legal in June. The whole track has a white line around the edge. Over with 4 wheels is out, 1 wheel inside is in. It's really not that complicated.
i absolutely agree with your sentiment.

unfortunately, the fact it’s literally rocket science in reverse, populated by highschool mean girls a week before prom, with lawyers mixed in means its the very definition of complicated.
 

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Ferrari never got caught cheating. There was an article I read awhile back, I can't remember when, but one of the officials confirmed that they couldn't prove whether or not Ferrari were cheating.

The compromise was to put Ferrari on a lean fuel mix throughout the next season (as well as their partner teams). That is why the pace slowed so much, not because they were caught cheating.

This still left the FIA with a concern over Red Bull's complaint, because the complaint revealed that there was a possibility for a team to exploit their current testing methods. So part of the Ferrari compromise was that they also had to assist the FIA in plugging this loop hole.

The results of the FIA's findings were kept a secret because of what the FIA did find from the testing and inspections. A technology that Ferrari were using that they were planning on using commercially. Ferrari didn't want any competitors to have this technology, so the FIA had to make the findings secret.
 

KurtP

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Ferrari never got caught cheating. There was an article I read awhile back, I can't remember when, but one of the officials confirmed that they couldn't prove whether or not Ferrari were cheating.

The compromise was to put Ferrari on a lean fuel mix throughout the next season (as well as their partner teams). That is why the pace slowed so much, not because they were caught cheating.

This still left the FIA with a concern over Red Bull's complaint, because the complaint revealed that there was a possibility for a team to exploit their current testing methods. So part of the Ferrari compromise was that they also had to assist the FIA in plugging this loop hole.

The results of the FIA's findings were kept a secret because of what the FIA did find from the testing and inspections. A technology that Ferrari were using that they were planning on using commercially. Ferrari didn't want any competitors to have this technology, so the FIA had to make the findings secret.
by the letter of the law you are absolutely correct. The notablely large asterisk i personally place on it is this:

-there was strong evidence that corroborated the theory that Ferrari was aliasing the pulse width of the HPFP in a pattern that intentionally masked peak output by tuning that pulse frequency to the fuel flow monitor’s sampling frequency rate. This is so far the only theory I have read that checks out as accomplishing what was alleged to have happened and being almost entirely undetectable

-fia took a specific action that would address the theory of pulse width modulation aliasing by mandating an additional meter and changes to fuel components, and suddenly the trap speeds of the ferrari cars plummeted. Proof positive? Maybe not. Strong evidence? Definitely (imo)

-red bull had hired a ferrari engineer, who outlined the technical details of how ferrari accomplished this, and assisted rbr in drafting the technical inquiry to the fia with the specific signal filtering/aliasing method purportedly used. This rule clarification is then what triggered the rest of the chain of events.

-so, the issue isnt that they didnt get caught, they did; it just couldnt be proven that it was “intentional”
 

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Sports, all sports but particularly European sports are corrupt to their core. The IOC, FIFA FIA and FIM are probably the worst in the world. I raced competitive MX for 25+ years, so I follow that sport closely and watched how the FIM changed the rules every year to allow Jeffery Heirlings to stay on the 250 so KTM could win both the 250 class and 450 class with Antonio Cairoli (450). The FIA is worst with the political influence they have over teams and how they apply their rules.

So I watch and follow because the machines are the best in the world and they probably have at least 10 of the best drivers going. But it's' folly to think that the FIA is there to be fair and that there isn't favoritism to the point where it affects outcomes of races and championships. JMHO.
 

VA90

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-there was strong evidence that corroborated the theory that Ferrari was aliasing the pulse width of the HPFP in a pattern that intentionally masked peak output by tuning that pulse frequency to the fuel flow monitor’s sampling frequency rate.
My nine year-old asked why Ferrari is so much slower these past couple of years. I will try this explanation with her. ?

Jokes aside, this is pretty much the only explanation I've seen of what exactly Ferrari were doing that was against or outside the rules. I have never understood why there was so much secrecy around this violation when other exploits (DAS, the blown diffuser, etc.) were dealt with relatively openly.
 

BadOne

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I have never understood why there was so much secrecy around this violation when other exploits (DAS, the blown diffuser, etc.) were dealt with relatively openly.
The reason for the secrecy is that during the investigation, the FIA found a piece of technology on the Ferrari car that Ferrari was planning on putting into their consumer vehicles. Ferrari didn't want people to know about this technology, so it was kept a secret.

Most other exploits are specific to F1 cars, so it doesn't affect future sales of consumer vehicles.

I don't typically agree with most things the FIA does, but I think they made the right call in this case. There is only speculation/correlation of what Ferrari were doing, neither of which equate to the actual cause. We may never know what they were truly doing, and frankly it doesn't really matter anymore. Ferrari (and their customer teams) paid their dues, all is square as far as I'm concerned.
 

KurtP

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My nine year-old asked why Ferrari is so much slower these past couple of years. I will try this explanation with her. ?

Jokes aside, this is pretty much the only explanation I've seen of what exactly Ferrari were doing that was against or outside the rules. I have never understood why there was so much secrecy around this violation when other exploits (DAS, the blown diffuser, etc.) were dealt with relatively openly.
@BadOne nailed it. It was a patented piece of tech headed for the consumer market. My understanding is that the devices were found to have been pulse modulated to do exactly what was claimed, but that it couldnt be definitively proven they did it intentionally. Not sure when proof ever mattered to the fia, but thats “”supposedly”” what was found.

in any event, they paid a dear price for it.
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