Advice - Meth or Ethanol

[DanTheManc]

I'm from the UK and have a 2021 3.0ltr 2 port Supra.

Performance mods are

Littco L625 hybrid turbo
Whifbitz catless downpipe
Whifbitz 3.5" cat back exhaust
GPF delete (because its a euro spec car)
FTP charge pipe
Eventuri intake
Custom ECU & TCU tune

My car is running 515bhp at the crank so around 460whp and 735nm or torque on 99 Ron fuel. I was hoping my car would run close to 600bhp when I bought the hybrid. My tuner says the turbo performs fine and what's limiting power is the lack of octane. He recommended I go for the titan motorsports meth kit.

I've never ran meth before and I think I'd prefer to just put fuel in the tank than mess about with meth. Also, the tank seems very small. I don't daily the Supra, it's my weekend car. I don't want to be running out of meth when I want to take the car out for a long drive.

Would I be best getting a flex fuel kit and running ethanol rather than meth? I still get the gains and I could still run a 99 map if I run out of ethanol. I appreciate I wouldn't get the cooling benefits of meth, but I just feel it would suit my needs better and get me to the power level I was hoping for.

Is BM3 the only option at the moment for flex fuel?

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[suicidaleggroll]

Do you have ethanol stations near you? If so then I’d definitely go that route. If ethanol will be inconvenient to get regularly then you might want to reconsider. Ecutek and bm3 can do flex fuel. You’ve only been hearing about bm3 recently because their flex fuel support is brand new, ecutek has been doing it for years.

Using meth as a power-adder can be dangerous. It doesn’t take much for something to go wrong and interrupt the flow and then your motor goes boom.

 

[DanTheManc]

No, we don't have ethanol stations in the UK. You have to buy it in drums and add it to the tank. You can add a lot more ethanol than meth each time. Meth wouldn't last long.

Do you have a rough idea of how much more power I'd get by going flex fuel and E40 on top of my existing mods?

 

[lucky phil]

No, we don't have ethanol stations in the UK. You have to buy it in drums and add it to the tank. You can add a lot more ethanol than meth each time. Meth wouldn't last long.

Do you have a rough idea of how much more power I'd get by going flex fuel and E40 on top of my existing mods?

Hears an interesting fact. Water meth injection was first developed along with Nitros oxide injection by the Germans primarily during the second world war to improve the performance of fighter aircraft via a HP boost. When Methanol stocks ran low in Germany they used Ethanol instead and when that ran out they jut used straight water. There was no horsepower difference at seal level and low altitudes using straight water over Methanol and ethanol the only measurable loss was at altitude where the MIX had an advantage. Methanol was only used in the mix to prevent freezing at low temps as altitude rose.
Early 747's with Pratt JT9D engines also used water meth for take off power boost in hot weather.
I'm betting if you lived in a mild climate where freezing wasn't an issue you could run straight distilled water in the water meth system and suffer no real performance loss.

Phil

 

[VeeBeeA90]

No, we don't have ethanol stations in the UK. You have to buy it in drums and add it to the tank. You can add a lot more ethanol than meth each time. Meth wouldn't last long.

Do you have a rough idea of how much more power I'd get by going flex fuel and E40 on top of my existing mods?

we in South Africa also dont have methanol pumps and have to buy in drums and store them.

First price would be flex fuel sensor and run up to E50 on stock fuel system, that should get you to over 500whp. Ecutek and Bootmod both support Flexfuel now.

The meth would be nice for added cooling only and not to use as a fuel source.
And as its your weekend car you will be fine on the smaller meth tank. Remember it only activates under load/boost and will not be spraying all the time.

It can be a PITA to fill Eth and Meth all the time, but if you want to added power then there's no other way around it really,
well there is but it means spending big money on Intake Manifolds, port injection, fuel system upgrades etc.

 

[BrettMRC]

What is the power/torque curve like with the current setup?

Are you pursuing 600bhp for a specific reason?

IME chasing a number results in a lot of £££ for something that can be quite peaky and unpleasant to drive.

 

[IzzoN]

I'm from the UK and have a 2021 3.0ltr 2 port Supra.

Performance mods are

Littco L625 hybrid turbo
Whifbitz catless downpipe
Whifbitz 3.5" cat back exhaust
GPF delete (because its a euro spec car)
FTP charge pipe
Eventuri intake
Custom ECU & TCU tune

My car is running 515bhp at the crank so around 460whp and 735nm or torque on 99 Ron fuel. I was hoping my car would run close to 600bhp when I bought the hybrid. My tuner says the turbo performs fine and what's limiting power is the lack of octane. He recommended I go for the titan motorsports meth kit.

I've never ran meth before and I think I'd prefer to just put fuel in the tank than mess about with meth. Also, the tank seems very small. I don't daily the Supra, it's my weekend car. I don't want to be running out of meth when I want to take the car out for a long drive.

Would I be best getting a flex fuel kit and running ethanol rather than meth? I still get the gains and I could still run a 99 map if I run out of ethanol. I appreciate I wouldn't get the cooling benefits of meth, but I just feel it would suit my needs better and get me to the power level I was hoping for.

Is BM3 the only option at the moment for flex fuel?

Eu car running the setup you are asking for:

Downpipe & full exhaust
Chargepipe
Pure800
Visconti flexifuel kit
Makes 550bhp on E45 mix.

I would reach 600 with both E45 and Meth, but I will probably look into port injection prior to meth due to the long term advantages of a dual injection system. My understanding is that motiv reflex would control both the port & meth injection.

 

[DanTheManc]

What is the power/torque curve like with the current setup?

Are you pursuing 600bhp for a specific reason?

IME chasing a number results in a lot of £££ for something that can be quite peaky and unpleasant to drive.

This is my graph

 

[BrettMRC]

I'm certainly no expert on the B58, but that graph looks like a very nice delivery - the obvious thing there is the way the torque peaks at mid RPM and drops off. That to me is an indication that you are not able to get air in and exhaust gases out fast enough.

I've seen a few aftermarket intake plenums that may assist with getting volume into the engine, not sure if they require an upgraded fuel flow/injector setup as well though. (assuming the turbo itself isn't unduly restricting the exhaust owing to a poor manifold design etc)

IMO you might be able to squeeze more peak power by changing the mixture, but fundamentally the engine isn't able to move gases through fast enough as it is.

Again - only my opinion, I've been out of the big HP turbo game for about 10 years and only just getting back into it.

 

[DanTheManc]

I'm certainly no expert on the B58, but that graph looks like a very nice delivery - the obvious thing there is the way the torque peaks at mid RPM and drops off. That to me is an indication that you are not able to get air in and exhaust gases out fast enough.

I've seen a few aftermarket intake plenums that may assist with getting volume into the engine, not sure if they require an upgraded fuel flow/injector setup as well though. (assuming the turbo itself isn't unduly restricting the exhaust owing to a poor manifold design etc)

IMO you might be able to squeeze more peak power by changing the mixture, but fundamentally the engine isn't able to move gases through fast enough as it is.

Again - only my opinion, I've been out of the big HP turbo game for about 10 years and only just getting back into it.

My tuner is Mike Ball. He has a fantastic reputation when it comes to tuning the B58 and other BMW engines in the UK. Unfortunately he doesn't tune via ECUTEK or BM3. He uses MHD and they don't offer flex fuel for the Supra.

Does anybody know at what stage the fuel pump needs upgrading? Is the stock pump OK for 600bhp at the crank?

 

[IzzoN]

My tuner is Mike Ball. He has a fantastic reputation when it comes to tuning the B58 and other BMW engines in the UK. Unfortunately he doesn't tune via ECUTEK or BM3. He uses MHD and they don't offer flex fuel for the Supra.

Does anybody know at what stage the fuel pump needs upgrading? Is the stock pump OK for 600bhp at the crank?

Go port before upgrading the lpfp. My understanding is that the upgraded pump is mainly needed to supplement E50+ fueling as E requires more fuel to be pushed. With meth you should be able to push 600bhp with your current setup, assuming your turbo isnt restrictive. I have no knowledge of the litco turbo, I mainly see pure/vargas hybrids.

 

[DanTheManc]

Go port before upgrading the lpfp. My understanding is that the upgraded pump is mainly needed to supplement E50+ fueling as E requires more fuel to be pushed. With meth you should be able to push 600bhp with your current setup, assuming your turbo isnt restrictive. I have no knowledge of the litco turbo, I mainly see pure/vargas hybrids.

The Littco turbo is good for over 700bhp. This 2 port Supra is running the same turbo as me but with more hardware.

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