Power upgrade options on pump fuel only

Thraxbert

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IMO kinda, oem+ type pump solutions I would consider FBO. Is it the pump or the injectors that reach duty cycle/flow limits first? (Is there value it a pump upgrade for us on 93 w/o port injection?)
These are the power limiters in order. (Please note for nitpicky sperglords that I'm greatly simplifying and ballparking this for the sake of easier discussion):

Stock turbo up to ~500 WHP --> overcome with a turbo upgrade
Stock axles up to ~500 WHP --> overcome with DSS axles (this line item only applies to hard launching on sticky tires)
Stock LPFP up to ~575 WHP --> overcome with an LPFP + port injection upgrade
Stock trans up to ~650 WHP --> overcome by building the transmission with Jack's, Pure, etc.
Stock motor around ~700 WHP --> overcome by building the engine

Personal hot take and sidenote:
I see some in this thread casting shade on ethanol (e85 fuel). You're missing out, if you have access to it. BIG TIME missing out. It makes more power than gasoline. It runs the engine colder than gasoline. It's safer for the engine than gasoline. Exhaust gas is colder than gasoline, and exhaust gas runs your turbo. It has oxygen molecules for cooling and power that gasoline does not. It's 105 octane race gas that comes from a pump, and it's cheaper than gasoline. If you have access to ethanol, and can afford to install a flex fuel sensor, it's a bit daft not to run with an ethanol/gasoline blend in the tank.

Running ethanol is no more or less difficult than pumping gas. And ethanol is not remotely like methanol: it requires no controllers, no nozzles, no injectors or pumps. METHanol is a powerful tool with many complications. ETHanol is a powerful tool that comes from the squeeze of a pump. Again, if you have access to it, running an e85 blend is fantastic way to add power and safety to the car.
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PotatoKing

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If you are a 2 port go with the CTS kit, as we speak my clients car is on the Dyno, and on 93 made a little over 500 wheel, on e30 we’re at 550 and 600, biggest limiting factor is we’re running out fuel but for the money and what you want, it is your best option, way more efficient then pure and. For the money it’s a no brainer. Have a few left at $2399 shipped!
Is the pushing those numbers just with a turbo and DP?
 

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These are the power limiters in order. (Please note for nitpicky sperglords that I'm greatly simplifying and ballparking this for the sake of easier discussion):

Stock turbo up to ~500 WHP --> overcome with a turbo upgrade
Stock axles up to ~500 WHP --> overcome with DSS axles (this line item only applies to hard launching on sticky tires)
Stock LPFP up to ~575 WHP --> overcome with an LPFP + port injection upgrade
Stock trans up to ~650 WHP --> overcome by building the transmission with Jack's, Pure, etc.
Stock motor around ~700 WHP --> overcome by building the engine

Personal hot take and sidenote:
I see some in this thread casting shade on ethanol (e85 fuel). You're missing out, if you have access to it. BIG TIME missing out. It makes more power than gasoline. It runs the engine colder than gasoline. It's safer for the engine than gasoline. Exhaust gas is colder than gasoline, and exhaust gas runs your turbo. It has oxygen molecules for cooling and power that gasoline does not. It's 105 octane race gas that comes from a pump, and it's cheaper than gasoline. If you have access to ethanol, and can afford to install a flex fuel sensor, it's a bit daft not to run with an ethanol/gasoline blend in the tank.

Running ethanol is no more or less difficult than pumping gas. And ethanol is not remotely like methanol: it requires no controllers, no nozzles, no injectors or pumps. METHanol is a powerful tool with many complications. ETHanol is a powerful tool that comes from the squeeze of a pump. Again, if you have access to it, running an e85 blend is fantastic way to add power and safety to the car.
Thanks for the reply. I understand the benefits of ETH when trying to push high power figures. But as the original post stated, there are no petrol stations that have it available here in Hong Kong, and METH is quite hard to get. The highest rated fuel is 98 RON (~93 octane)

Are the power limitation based on 93? As of now, I plan to get the CSF manifold, HPFP, a turbo upgrade (to be decided which) and beef up the cooling. I’m asking so I can manage my expectations, knowing the 600+ whp is for the ETH/METH club.

If I’m not running METH, would the PI function on the CSF manifold be useless, or I can use it for 93? Would it be pointless if there is a HPFP?
 

Thraxbert

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You do want CSF manifold, you do want to use the port injection capabilities in the manifold, you do not want or need the HPFP. You will hit 600+ on this setup. It will be easily accomplished.

The power limitations I'm describing above are somewhat independent of fuel. You can reach them with 93 or ethanol blends. Ethanol and petrol both top out at this number because there are multiple ways to tune the engine, and the strategy changes depending on the fuel in the tank. But each "tuning strategy" runs out of steam when the fuel pump can't deliver more fuel, and that limit nets out to ~575 if the turbo isn't getting in the way.
 

zrk

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Why do people insist on the HPFP? lol. The HPFP on the Supra is the upgraded HPFP from. The Gen2 B58(TU) pump is the pump that gen 1 owners put on their cars. There is no upgrade for the B58TU HPFP.

Additionally, why do people insist on the CSF intake manifold when it's been proven over and over and over there is a better manifold on the market for nearly the same price?
 
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PotatoKing

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Why do people insist on the HPFP? lol. The HPFP on the Supra is the upgraded HPFP from. The Gen2 B58(TU) pump is the pump that gen 1 owners put on their cars. There is no upgrade for the B58TU HPFP.

Additionally, why do people insist on the CSF intake manifold when it's been proven over and over and over there is a better manifold on the market for nearly the same price?
Thanks for the info on the HPFP, I didn’t know that. As for the manifold what options are there? So far I see CSF and AMS is available.
 

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Thanks for the info on the HPFP, I didn’t know that. As for the manifold what options are there? So far I see CSF and AMS is available.
Sorry for being a dick btw. I just see this same shit constantly and it's frustrating ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

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I'd consider his build slightly more than FBO, considering he has a big ass turbo in there.
I'm not even FBO. I just got some light mods with a modest tune.




Concerning manifoldsRight now the most proven manifold on the drag strip = EOS. People are changing their already upgraded manifolds with this manifold.
 
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PotatoKing

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Sorry for being a dick btw. I just see this same shit constantly and it's frustrating ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
No worries, no harm done.

It was just that my tuner told me CSF is the way to go, he's got a client he is currently working with who got CSF installed and the results are pretty good(although there is only a handful of tuned supra here to compare with). So I was thinking of just get the CSF 5-piece cooling package since I needed more cooling for a pump fuel-only build.


Concerning manifoldsRight now the most proven manifold on the drag strip = EOS. People are changing their already upgraded manifolds with this manifold.
Now seeing you both are running the EOS on your build, I think reconsideration of my options is in order.
 

Thraxbert

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EOS is definitely the way to go. It runs colder, the core design is better, the physical footprint is better. CSF is just... Fine. It's a 1st-gen attempt at Supra manifolds and it shows.

If you are going to get a manifold, then you should SKIP all the radiator upgrades. They're not very effective. The heat exchangers on this car are not weak, but the manifold is a sore spot for thermal reasons.
 

geert.bieseman

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EOS is definitely the way to go. It runs colder, the core design is better, the physical footprint is better. CSF is just... Fine. It's a 1st-gen attempt at Supra manifolds and it shows.

If you are going to get a manifold, then you should SKIP all the radiator upgrades. They're not very effective. The heat exchangers on this car are not weak, but the manifold is a sore spot for thermal reasons.
Now what are perhaps interesting questions and answers for everybody:
  • can you use the EOS manifold with the stock oil filter without needing to remove the manifold during an oil change?
  • can you use the stock charge pipe, or do you require a larger diameter due to their larger throttle body

Or are there still 'issues'? (fyi, I am not talking about re-allocating or another filter... really stock location and oem filter)

I know their first version of the manifold has that problem with the oil filter.
Rumours say that their 'second version' no longer has that issue. But if not mistaken, that second version is na little smaller (less core I guess??).

You just can't find that information, not even on the EOS website.


Would be eager to know the cooling difference between their first & second version of the manifold, assuming that the second version is 'smaller' to fit the oem filter??


Again, don't shoot me for those question. But providing actual data and limitations of each vendor, is helpfull towards the community besides 'stating to skip csf and get the eos one'.
Also regarding how huge the difference is and under which conditions (I mean, even 5 degrees celcius ambiant air difference can do a lot to data)


P.S.: I got the entire CSF cooling package for almost a year, but still need to get it installed haha :)
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