The 2021 News Really Bums Me Out / Buyer's Remorse

[solidsamir]

That is incorrect and misleading speculation. Both engines were developed at the same time by BMW and were part of the TÜ1 update. There is no old one and new one. They are just used in different applications. For example the 840i uses a similar engine and is newer than the Z4 M40i.

Furthermore, the "new" engine does not seem to meet Europe emission standards, so phasing out the "old" engine seems even more far fetched.

There absolutely is a new one and an old one. The original b58 was used in the LCI BMW 340 and 440. Then there was the update for the Supra and new 3 series. Now there is another update. There will continue to be newer versions of the b58. Old engines are getting phased out.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_B58#Models

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[Reppunkamui]

There absolutely is a new one and an old one. The original b58 was used in the LCI BMW 340 and 440. Then there was the update for the Supra and new 3 series. Now there is another update. There will continue to be newer versions of the b58. Old engines are getting phased out.

2020 Supra's B58c is similar to B58M1, telltale signs are the internal exhaust manifold and hp rating. 2021 Supra's B58d is similar to the B58O1, telltale sign is hp rating, compression ratio and the fact it is in the Z4 M40i. As previously mentioned both of these were part of the same TÜ1 update.

The B58M0 you refer to for the LCI 340i is the engine prior to the TÜ1 update and not in either version of the Supra.

 

[digicidal]

The far more viable question (regarding the sentiment of the OP) is what percentage of the time you spend doing WOT pulls... if you only bought an A90 to dyno or drag race then I suppose I understand on some level. However, if that's the case then probably the Supra wasn't the best choice regardless... there are better platforms for less money.

On the other hand, if you're looking for a fast, fun daily... then getting nearly the same torque a little bit sooner - will make the MY20 slightly more enjoyable IMO. However, no sports car (especially one with a BMW powertrain) was going to have the kind of minimal depreciation that an econo-compact with an anemic NA 4-cyl like the Corolla will. Part of the reason is that there is always something a little "better" and the rest is that almost no one (I'm the exception) buys them just for transportation as their primary vehicle.

If the belief is that no one will pay for an older model with a slightly less powerful engine... then isn't the 2.0 announcement a much bigger "threat" than the B58D version? Why does that part not garner the same resentment? Those will always be cheaper and potentially even better for anyone looking to strip-n-swap or build from the ground up.

 

[ynguldyn]

2020 Supra's B58c is similar to B58M1, telltale signs are the internal exhaust manifold and hp rating. 2021 Supra's B58d is similar to the B58O1, telltale sign is hp rating, compression ratio and the fact it is in the Z4 M40i. As previously mentioned both of these were part of the same TÜ1 update.

The B58M0 you refer to for the LCI 340i is the engine prior to the TÜ1 update and not in either version of the Supra.

Just to be more precise, B58C _is_ B58B30M1, and B58D is B58B30O1. Each engine model has two designations used in different situations. The single letter is what you see when you do a VIN lookup, the long name is the official name of the engine model. The M240i/340i/440i's B58B30M0 is "B58M" in VIN lookup. And the last digit of the proper engine identification denotes the TÜ level, so both Supra engines are TÜ1.

I'm attaching a BMW training doc that compares the original (M240i/340i/440i) and the TÜ motors. The TÜ side is mostly covered by B58B30M1 (the original Supra motor), with O1 mentioned just a few times. So, most of the document applies to both Supra motors, with the differences between M1 and O1 noted in:

• Insert C on page 2
• Section 2.1.1 on page 5-6
• Section 5.2.1 on page 27

 

[tfoxyr]

I feel like you were thinking about Tesla while writing "Toyota".

hahaha lold

 

[Supra CRNA]

random thought. fast forward 20 years, this Supra will be recognized as this generations legendary super car. Maybe a 7 year run on this chassis? I can see people swapping 2025 motors into 2020 cars, 2024 into 2022 cars, etc. I recently examined at all mounting points/ brackets (above and below) for this engine and tranny... a motor swap does not look too difficult. If mounting points don't change it all looks fairly simple to do, much easier than the swap I did for my old B18c EG hatch. All the ECU/DME compatibility between models shouldn't change too much. Maybe Toyota understands where it wants to see this car 20 years from now and is preparing it for it. This is an exceptional platform/chassis to last decades, either through motor swaps or just routine maintenance. Keep you 2020's guys and don't take the depreciation hit. I intend on keeping mine for generations.

 

[kissmyrs]

Its just a tune update that makes the power no? Whats the big deal! Mod for mod they will run the same... did I miss something?

 

[solidsamir]

2020 Supra's B58c is similar to B58M1, telltale signs are the internal exhaust manifold and hp rating. 2021 Supra's B58d is similar to the B58O1, telltale sign is hp rating, compression ratio and the fact it is in the Z4 M40i. As previously mentioned both of these were part of the same TÜ1 update.

The B58M0 you refer to for the LCI 340i is the engine prior to the TÜ1 update and not in either version of the Supra.

ya the point is they are phasing older b58s out...

 

[digicidal]

ya the point is they are phasing older b58s out...

So as long as "an unfortunate event" causes critical damage to the engine while under warranty - the newer replacement is guaranteed?

 

[bigcat]

I feel like you were thinking about Tesla while writing "Toyota".

If Toyota provide OTA ECU update to give MY2020 more horse power just like Tesla does, it would be damn awesome.
Unfortunately we all knew it won't happen, and not because technical difficulty.

Talking about the power enhancement, call me conspiracy theorist, but I believe BMW and Toyota made a deal to detune the B58 engine in Supra for the first year.

 

[jtsang25]

Its just a tune update that makes the power no? Whats the big deal! Mod for mod they will run the same... did I miss something?

It isnt just a tune. New engine, new pistons and a list of other hardware change.

 

[kissmyrs]

It isnt just a tune. New engine, new pistons and a list of other hardware change.

yes I know about the revised head, pistons alone wont make power...where does the actually power increase come from? The tune right? If so this isnt a big deal...

Only the suspension stuff irks me, people now calling the 2020 a good daily. Lmao

mod for mods they will run the same unless I missing something

 

[digicidal]

yes I know about the revised head, pistons alone wont make power...where does the actually power increase come from? The tune right? If so this isnt a big deal...

Only the suspension stuff irks me, people now calling the 2020 a good daily. Lmao

mod for mods they will run the same unless I missing something

I think most of the power increase comes from lower heat at the turbo and better flow through the individual runners as opposed to the single turbo mount on the B58C. Obviously the pistons play a part, etc. but ultimately it's just that it can handle a bit more boost while remaining as reliable as it's predecessor. At least that's my take from the tech details posted earlier. So technically no, mod for mod the newer engine will likely be slightly better all the way up.

And the suspension stuff is adding front strut braces and perhaps a slight spring upgrade. I wouldn't expect more than that or they would have said something more than mentioning the braces in the release.

Important to note however, that tuning the first engine to beyond the capabilities of the transmission is trivial - so you'll still have that very significant "firewall" on either version... you'll just hit it even sooner on the MY21's

 

[Reppunkamui]

ya the point is they are phasing older b58s out...

No... I think you may have lost track of the conversation. My point is no phasing out is occurring because B58c and B58d are developed simultaneously from the TÜ1 update. Neither is old or new relative to each other. Both are successors to the B58M0.

The thread:

• you hypothesized that the "old" 2020 Supra engine (B58c) was being phased out by the "new" 2021 Supra engine (B58d). "All BMW cars that have an i6 will get this new b58 and the old b58 will be phased out in all models"
• I provided information that both engines (B58c/B58M1 and B58d/B58O1) were developed at the same time so neither was old nor new. I showed an example of a new BMW that has the B58M1 after the B58O1 has been out for a year.
• Then you linked to the LCI 340i B58M0 engine, to say it is an old B58 engine.
• I indicated it was irrelevant because it preceeded and not in either 2020 or 2021 Supra models.
• Now you say "ya the point is they are phasing older b58s out"

 

[kissmyrs]

I think most of the power increase comes from lower heat at the turbo and better flow through the individual runners as opposed to the single turbo mount on the B58C. Obviously the pistons play a part, etc. but ultimately it's just that it can handle a bit more boost while remaining as reliable as it's predecessor. At least that's my take from the tech details posted earlier. So technically no, mod for mod the newer engine will likely be slightly better all the way up.

And the suspension stuff is adding front strut braces and perhaps a slight spring upgrade. I wouldn't expect more than that or they would have said something more than mentioning the braces in the release.

Important to note however, that tuning the first engine to beyond the capabilities of the transmission is trivial - so you'll still have that very significant "firewall" on either version... you'll just hit it even sooner on the MY21's

I heard they retuned the dampers and some other stuff. The suspension stuff gets me lol

So Im guessing they went short runners vs long for the extra Hp —as the tq is negligible. I think they will run about the same mod for mod. Either way I never keep a car over 2 years

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