Toyota Gazoo Racing World Premieres GR GT & GR GT3

[C-Pike]

Do we have any real up dates on this thing?

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[PerformanceSound]

If I had to “guess”….

Material acquisition under review. 2023 will determine green light for the new platform globally. In other words, this new platform might not be available in North America. On the same note, logistics efforts are focusing on J300 LC globally. We may actually see the return of the LC to the States.

 

[2JZ-No-Sh*t]

I would be shocked if it's not sold in the U.S.

 

[PerformanceSound]

I would be shocked if it's not sold in the U.S.

It’s all dollar and cents at the end of the day. If they can afford to make an affordable car globally, they will. However, right now, the economy is seriously down….like you can’t even get baby food down.

 

[Bryster]

It’s all dollar and cents at the end of the day. If they can afford to make an affordable car globally, they will. However, right now, the economy is seriously down….like you can’t even get baby food down.

Is there a chance they outsource?

 

[2JZ-No-Sh*t]

It’s all dollar and cents at the end of the day. If they can afford to make an affordable car globally, they will. However, right now, the economy is seriously down….like you can’t even get baby food down.

Right, but I still think it would be odd to make a low-volume car for just Japan and maybe Europe. I believe the U.S. has been one of the biggest markets for the J29.

 

[PerformanceSound]

Right, but I still think it would be odd to make a low-volume car for just Japan and maybe Europe. I believe the U.S. has been one of the biggest markets for the J29.

Japan has been doing it for decades. Nothing new. Also, the strong value of the Yen makes this possible for Japan.

 

[KahnBB6]

There is no way that this platform won't be used in one or more models marketed in North America. In the 1980's-2000's Japanese manufacturers did that, yes but in today's market it wouldn't make so much sense for a low volume sportscar.

Begrudgingly it made sense to them for the GR Yaris but for a pair of Lexus and Toyota flagship sportscars...?

...

Definitely looking like a possibility for the Land Cruiser to return to NA. Hopefully it will be a proper FJ70 or FJ Cruiser style successor and in a far better vein than Land Rover did with the new "Defender". Targeting Ford's new Bronco (not the Bronco Sport) with an eye to hybrid powertrains might be good strategy but the legacy of the FJ70 Land Cruiser is far greater as a global workhorse that they *should* build on.

The J200 wasn't a Land Cruiser so much as it was a "Land Yacht". I sincerely hope they get back to what made LC's great.

 

[PerformanceSound]

There is no way that this platform won't be used in one or more models marketed in North America. In the 1980's-2000's Japanese manufacturers did that, yes but in today's market it wouldn't make so much sense for a low volume sportscar.

Begrudgingly it made sense to them for the GR Yaris but for a pair of Lexus and Toyota flagship sportscars...?

...

Definitely looking like a possibility for the Land Cruiser to return to NA. Hopefully it will be a proper FJ70 or FJ Cruiser style successor and in a far better vein than Land Rover did with the new "Defender". Targeting Ford's new Bronco (not the Bronco Sport) with an eye to hybrid powertrains might be good strategy but the legacy of the FJ70 Land Cruiser is far greater as a global workhorse that they *should* build on.

The J200 wasn't a Land Cruiser so much as it was a "Land Yacht". I sincerely hope they get back to what made LC's great.

Toyota (like other foreign automakers) are radically changing their direction, I think alot of people are forgetting that material sourcing has taken a nose dive. Emissions standards is getting tighter and tighter by the day, and inflation has made buying high-quality things almost out of everyone’s reach. So, let’s think about this for a second…will Toyota build a “cheap” quality sports car? No….Toyota prides on quality and quality isn’t cheap. Will Toyota build an all electric sports car? No…at least not in the near future. Will Toyota build a “cheaper” costing sports car? No….not because they can’t, but because with inflation it’s not possible. With that said, what part makes you believe that they will build a mid-to-high volume sports car for North America that will be; emission compliant, high quality, and within someone’s financial reach (in 2023/2024)? Remember, Japan isn’t feeling the pain of inflation we are….our dollar is crap compared to their Yen. Japan doesn’t have an incompetent EPA like we do. Like you said, it may have a similar future like the GR Yaris, with possible availability in Europe….but, unless the US gets it shit together, this may be a Japan and/or EMEA only vehicle.

I have my money on this platform being a Japan only with a Lexus coupe sharing its underpinnings and (if what I know will come true) a Toyota variant of the Lexus.

As for a GR GT3 etc…. I don’t believe this will make it to US or North American shores.

 

[Bryster]

Toyota (like other foreign automakers) are radically changing their direction, I think alot of people are forgetting that material sourcing has taken a nose dive. Emissions standards is getting tighter and tighter by the day, and inflation has made buying high-quality things almost out of everyone’s reach. So, let’s think about this for a second…will Toyota build a “cheap” quality sports car? No….Toyota prides on quality and quality isn’t cheap. Will Toyota build an all electric sports car? No…at least not in the near future. Will Toyota build a “cheaper” costing sports car? No….not because they can’t, but because with inflation it’s not possible. With that said, what part makes you believe that they will build a mid-to-high volume sports car for North America that will be; emission compliant, high quality, and within someone’s financial reach (in 2023/2024)? Remember, Japan isn’t feeling the pain of inflation we are….our dollar is crap compared to their Yen. Japan doesn’t have an incompetent EPA like we do. Like you said, it may have a similar future like the GR Yaris, with possible availability in Europe….but, unless the US gets it shit together, this may be a Japan and/or EMEA only vehicle.

I have my money on this platform being a Japan only with a Lexus coupe sharing its underpinnings and (if what I know will come true) a Toyota variant of the Lexus.

As for a GR GT3 etc…. I don’t believe this will make it to US or North American shores.

Can I ask about the Simulated manual? how long were they planning that? because as far as we were concerned they wanted to focus on electrification

 

[KahnBB6]

Toyota (like other foreign automakers) are radically changing their direction, I think alot of people are forgetting that material sourcing has taken a nose dive. Emissions standards is getting tighter and tighter by the day, and inflation has made buying high-quality things almost out of everyone’s reach. So, let’s think about this for a second…will Toyota build a “cheap” quality sports car? No….Toyota prides on quality and quality isn’t cheap. Will Toyota build an all electric sports car? No…at least not in the near future. Will Toyota build a “cheaper” costing sports car? No….not because they can’t, but because with inflation it’s not possible. With that said, what part makes you believe that they will build a mid-to-high volume sports car for North America that will be; emission compliant, high quality, and within someone’s financial reach (in 2023/2024)? Remember, Japan isn’t feeling the pain of inflation we are….our dollar is crap compared to their Yen. Japan doesn’t have an incompetent EPA like we do. Like you said, it may have a similar future like the GR Yaris, with possible availability in Europe….but, unless the US gets it shit together, this may be a Japan and/or EMEA only vehicle.

I have my money on this platform being a Japan only with a Lexus coupe sharing its underpinnings and (if what I know will come true) a Toyota variant of the Lexus.

As for a GR GT3 etc…. I don’t believe this will make it to US or North American shores.

It's an interesting take on this. Considering that North America is one of the biggest markets for the Supra and GR Corolla. And considering that the emissions standards here allow for the B58D 382hp engine in the MKV while most of Europe appears to be limited to the B58C 335hp engine due to their stricter emissions standards.

Similarly the GR86 continues to sell here but isn't being sold for more than two model years in much of the EU due to the same stricter emissions constraints.

The GR Yaris not coming here has much more to do with it being a low volume and very tiny car that Toyota *assumes* would not sell due to its diminutive size and having only three doors. They're wrong but... that's what they assume. And also they had already killed off the Yaris in North America and would have to spend far more crash testing and re-certifying that car vs doing a new GR variant of the Corolla that is already on sale in NA.

The GR GT3 twin vehicles are likely to succeed the Supra and add a very high end performance Lexus halo car into their lineup with hybrid powertrains. That's been their strategy for the shorter term with all their cars after this current trio of Toyota GR performance cars and existing Lexus performance models already on sale. All the Japanese manufacturers are going to hybrid gas-electric drivetrains of some kind to meet emissions and still offer their niche fun models before the 2030's.

There will be a healthy market for the GT3 Concept based cars as halo models for their respective brands.

As for pure EV performance cars... Toyota is already working on those as you know. The GR Celica is a few years off and the Lexus EV LFA successor is also in the works. Both of these models and presumably all their full EV models in development are skipping lithium-ion (probably) and will go right into solid state batteries when they're ready. That and the same batteries in all likelihood paired with hydrogen fuel cells and storage tanks.

GR also is rumored to be developing a hybrid gas-electric GR Crown sedan.

Hydrogen internal combustion and alternative combustion fuel models are almost certainly going to show up in racing. For the street it depends on some technical things too long for this one post. But they're definitely trying that out too.

The overall larger market shift to EVs and away from combustion in general isn't going to reverse and most world governments are moving in that direction. But gas powered vehicles certainly aren't going away overnight even when they can't be sold new any longer after 2035.

But right now at just near the beginning of 2023 we're still going to see combustion niche fun cars even if most of them increasingly incorporate some electric hybridization for economy, emissions and power boosting.

I cannot speak to the hard design feature insider knowledge that you have been aware of but it's just silly to assume that Toyota will up and not offer their very next generation of hybrid-electric high end performance halo cars here. North America is just too big of a market for them to ignore for a Supra successor model.

...I'm more concerned about what we'll get BELOW a next gen Supra successor model in North America. The GR86 is being tested with a version of the G16E-GTS engine with possible hybrid revision in RWD layout so I am very hopeful that the fun "86" style car will survive.

But once the not-even-available-yet GR Corolla ends sales once the mainstream Corolla models end production I do wonder what Toyota has planned to keep a third GR model in the lineup.

Maybe by then it'll be the GR Celica EV coupe. Or maybe before that it'll be the rumored GR Crown performance gs-hybrid sedan.

...

I'm just saying... Toyota/Lexus are clearly NOT sitting on their laurels with actual performance models. As regulations become a bit more strict every couple of years they are planning ways to still offer driving fun in the real sense from special models.

North America is NOT the most emissions strict market on the globe for such models. And we represent one of the largest markets for cars like the Supra MKV, Nissan Z, Lexus LC500, Porsche 911, Nissan GTR, etc., etc.

 

[KahnBB6]

Can I ask about the Simulated manual? how long were they planning that? because as far as we were concerned they wanted to focus on electrification

I'd also love to know more about how this is going for them. I've seen the recent proof of concept R&D car in a crossover chassis. While it is fake it is still far more interesting than a soulless 1-speed silent experience.

I'm more interested in Dodge's electro-mechanical "shiftable" EV transmission in the Daytona concept but Toyota may be onto something if it brings back very well thought through interactivity to their performance EVs.

Then there's another aspect to all of this: when we finally get to the point that batteries for electric cars are no longer the compromised bottlenecks that they are... this may actually have an effect of changing the dynamics of the torque curves of the motors powering the wheels as things stand today with 2022 technology.

^^ It is still very early days but such advancements *might* meet something like simulated manual transmission technology halfway.

Ultimately I'm keeping an open mind on their simulated manual experimentation. After the GR Supra, GR86, GR Yaris, GR Corolla and their Lexus performance models I want to see where they go with this. Anything that genuinely keeps their niche cars fun to drive is a total 180 from what Tesla has given us as the main impression of all that electric cars can aspire to be.

 

[PerformanceSound]

It's an interesting take on this. Considering that North America is one of the biggest markets for the Supra and GR Corolla. And considering that the emissions standards here allow for the B58D 382hp engine in the MKV while most of Europe appears to be limited to the B58C 335hp engine due to their stricter emissions standards.

Similarly the GR86 continues to sell here but isn't being sold for more than two model years in much of the EU due to the same stricter emissions constraints.

The GR Yaris not coming here has much more to do with it being a low volume and very tiny car that Toyota *assumes* would not sell due to its diminutive size and having only three doors. They're wrong but... that's what they assume. And also they had already killed off the Yaris in North America and would have to spend far more crash testing and re-certifying that car vs doing a new GR variant of the Corolla that is already on sale in NA.

The GR GT3 twin vehicles are likely to succeed the Supra and add a very high end performance Lexus halo car into their lineup with hybrid powertrains. That's been their strategy for the shorter term with all their cars after this current trio of Toyota GR performance cars and existing Lexus performance models already on sale. All the Japanese manufacturers are going to hybrid gas-electric drivetrains of some kind to meet emissions and still offer their niche fun models before the 2030's.

There will be a healthy market for the GT3 Concept based cars as halo models for their respective brands.

As for pure EV performance cars... Toyota is already working on those as you know. The GR Celica is a few years off and the Lexus EV LFA successor is also in the works. Both of these models and presumably all their full EV models in development are skipping lithium-ion (probably) and will go right into solid state batteries when they're ready. That and the same batteries in all likelihood paired with hydrogen fuel cells and storage tanks.

GR also is rumored to be developing a hybrid gas-electric GR Crown sedan.

Hydrogen internal combustion and alternative combustion fuel models are almost certainly going to show up in racing. For the street it depends on some technical things too long for this one post. But they're definitely trying that out too.

The overall larger market shift to EVs and away from combustion in general isn't going to reverse and most world governments are moving in that direction. But gas powered vehicles certainly aren't going away overnight even when they can't be sold new any longer after 2035.

But right now at just near the beginning of 2023 we're still going to see combustion niche fun cars even if most of them increasingly incorporate some electric hybridization for economy, emissions and power boosting.

I cannot speak to the hard design feature insider knowledge that you have been aware of but it's just silly to assume that Toyota will up and not offer their very next generation of hybrid-electric high end performance halo cars here. North America is just too big of a market for them to ignore for a Supra successor model.

...I'm more concerned about what we'll get BELOW a next gen Supra successor model in North America. The GR86 is being tested with a version of the G16E-GTS engine with possible hybrid revision in RWD layout so I am very hopeful that the fun "86" style car will survive.

But once the not-even-available-yet GR Corolla ends sales once the mainstream Corolla models end production I do wonder what Toyota has planned to keep a third GR model in the lineup.

Maybe by then it'll be the GR Celica EV coupe. Or maybe before that it'll be the rumored GR Crown performance gs-hybrid sedan.

...

I'm just saying... Toyota/Lexus are clearly NOT sitting on their laurels with actual performance models. As regulations become a bit more strict every couple of years they are planning ways to still offer driving fun in the real sense from special models.

North America is NOT the most emissions strict market on the globe for such models. And we represent one of the largest markets for cars like the Supra MKV, Nissan Z, Lexus LC500, Porsche 911, Nissan GTR, etc., etc.

There is a new sports car platform coming, this I know for sure (Lexus something and Toyota Supra successor). I was referring to this GR GT3 concept that is way too costly overall for the U.S. market. Even as a Lexus only, it would put this vehicle in the $200k+ price range….which would certainly make it an extremely low volume vehicle that I know Toyota doesn’t want to pursue as part of their next steps forward. This same concept failed with the LFA, and it will surely fail as a Lexus F/GR GT3. Now, could this be the “idea” or “vision” for the new “A” platform?….possibly. Yet, this concept to go into production as a Supra will price the Supra out of market and it will suffer the same demise as the MKIV.

There are R&D mules with undetectable camo running new underpinnings for the new platform. However, pretty positive it’s not the GR GT3.

 

[PerformanceSound]

Can I ask about the Simulated manual? how long were they planning that? because as far as we were concerned they wanted to focus on electrification

I believe this is Yamaha’s new tech that Toyota is using. It’s a voltage-regulated “shift-by-wire” setup that is just in prototyping.

 

[KahnBB6]

There is a new sports car platform coming, this I know for sure (Lexus something and Toyota Supra successor). I was referring to this GR GT3 concept that is way too costly overall for the U.S. market. Even as a Lexus only, it would put this vehicle in the $200k+ price range….which would certainly make it an extremely low volume vehicle that I know Toyota doesn’t want to pursue as part of their next steps forward. This same concept failed with the LFA, and it will surely fail as a Lexus F/GR GT3. Now, could this be the “idea” or “vision” for the new “A” platform?….possibly. Yet, this concept to go into production as a Supra will price the Supra out of market and it will suffer the same demise as the MKIV.

There are R&D mules with undetectable camo running new underpinnings for the new platform. However, pretty positive it’s not the GR GT3.

Hang on... it was my understanding previous to your post that the GR GT3 Concept *was* the prototype platform that would be shared between the next generation Supra and an upcoming FAR more expensive Lexus supercar.

That is not the case? The GR GT3 prototype/platform represents something else entirely?

I still think Lexus would sell it globally including in NA given that we do have very wealthy people who buy supercars in NA but I had thought all this time that the GR GT3 Concept was not a third car but a platform that would spawn a new Supra and Lexus with wildly different powertrains, options and styling. Also it very curiously shares many of the same hard-points visually with one of Mazda's recent "Vision" concept sportscars.

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