Extended warranty: did you get one?

Discussion in 'Pricing, Ordering, Negotiating' started by Ryanthetemp, Jul 28, 2019.

  1. s219

    s219 Well-Known Member

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    Toyota did not make changes to the engine. It's been documented in several writeups and videos that they tore down the engine, noted concerns, did further testing, and found that the engine met all their requirements for reliability. You have to remember that the B58 was well along in development independent of the Z4/Supra project, and B58 variants have been out in production vehicles for several years now. Whether Toyota could have changed the engine is another debate, but in this case they did not.

    In the context of this discussion it means that if you have concerns about BMW reliability then those concerns will be the same in the case of the Supra. However, the fact that it passed Toyota's rigorous examination and testing is a good sign for both brands.
     
  2. justbake

    justbake Well-Known Member

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    No it hasn't
     
  3. s219

    s219 Well-Known Member

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    Multiple reviewers talked with Tada about engine reliability at the US intro, and he talked about how Toyota tore-down and analyzed the B58, and found it to meet their standards. Here is a good video from one reviewer, but there are many others you can read and find on Youtube if you care to research it. This was so frequently mentioned by multiple reviewers I have no reason to doubt what Tada said, even accounting for translation.

     
  4. justbake

    justbake Well-Known Member

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    Who is this guy to trump the statements of others? This is one reviewer where the context of his statement doesn't indicate that nothing was improved on. This isn't proof by any means and it only a single account.

    I have done a lot of research, that is why I am telling you your statement is a flat-out not true.

    Then surely you are able to find another source to back up your claim, right?
     
  5. s219

    s219 Well-Known Member

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    Just so we're clear, what exactly is your position on this? It might be easier to shoot that down. In another similar thread folks were claiming Toyota-engineered parts on the engine and we were able to disprove that with BMW parts diagrams.
     
  6. justbake

    justbake Well-Known Member

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    First off, the diagrams don't prove that Toyota didn't engineer them. I honestly can't imagine thinking that they would in any way, shape, or form. In what world would they not be there if Toyota did engineer them?

    Second, I am saying that the claim of Toyota not making any changes to the motor (whether individually or in conjunction with BMW) being untrue.
     
  7. s219

    s219 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, you're thinking about this the wrong way. You are partly right in #1, however many of the parts that were claimed to be Toyota were legacy BMW bits, so if it was true that Toyota engineered those parts, then Toyota must have been engineering parts for BMW for many years prior, and for other engines besides the Supra's B58. That's where I stopped arguing the point even though some people were still unconvinced. This is a tough forum since people are desperately looking for evidence of Toyota's contributions and nobody exercises common sense or thinks about prior evidence.
     
  8. kona61

    kona61 Well-Known Member

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    I got it just for peace of mind.
     
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  9. justbake

    justbake Well-Known Member

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    No shit there are many many legacy parts, but it only takes a couple bad ones to be the difference between a great motor and one with lots of problems. Even a single poorly designed gasket can pass on a $4000+ repair bill to a customer, the oil gallery gaskets on my former G37 are evidence of this along with many others in the industry. Although an incredible reliable motor, a repair bill of that extent is certain to leave a bad taste is one's mouth.

    Like the Toyota 1WW and 2WW based off the N20 as early as 2015, so yeah, they actually have been engineering parts for BMW motors for years now

    At the same time, youre making claims without any evidence.
     
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  10. mkhank7865

    mkhank7865 Active Member

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    I was told not to post that same chart publicly online.
     
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  11. kona61

    kona61 Well-Known Member

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    Anonymity is the word of the day!
     
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  12. 084runnerltd

    084runnerltd Well-Known Member

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    I just reached out to a dealer to ask for pricing on an extended warranty. That is what they sent me.

    Regardless, I deleted it.

    Guessing they don’t want it posted as some dealers will undoubtedly double or triple the price of the warranty.
     
  13. A70TTR

    A70TTR Well-Known Member

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    This is incorrect. Not only did Toyota independently tear down and test the B58 in Japan, they also submitted revision reports to BMW which are essentially proposals to re-engineer parts including the issue/remedy. To what degree these proposals were implemented is debatable, but either way the project would only be approved once Toyota reliability standards were met. This project also goes back 7.5 years, which is something some folks fail to grasp (3 years prior to the original B58 release, let alone other variants).

    This is NOT something that would be discussed publicly as it would potentially make BMW look bad, so I wouldn't look to any public statements for answers (this includes conversations with journalists).
     
  14. s219

    s219 Well-Known Member

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    The fact that they got a B58 to teardown should tell us a lot about how far along the engine was prior to Toyota getting their hands on it -- and the way Tada explained it definitely made it sound past tense as well. There is a video floating around where he was interviewed by a US person with a translator standing alongside and it sounded like they got a B58 shipped to Japan for the teardown. He was answering the question in a somewhat defensive mode, the point being "Toyota did not have resources to develop an inline six for the car, but the Supra will live up to Toyota's standards because we vetted the engine extensively". I feel like he would have tooted Toyota's horn even a little bit if Toyota was involved in engineering or improving the engine. I also feel like he wouldn't have been so quick to say Toyota couldn't develop their own engine if he instead could have said "we co-developed the engine" or "we worked with BMW to improve the engine". Tada himself has been very clear that Toyota turned to BMW for the engine.

    There is also the matter of timing. The first B-family modular engine went into production in 2013 (and by modular I am pointing to the way the 3-, 4-, and 6-cyl engines share parts and scale up/down). The B58 itself went into production in 2015 (starting with the 3-series LCI). To me, engines that went into production in 2013-2015 were probably finalized at least a couple years before then and developed a couple years before that. So I would estimate B58 engine development and testing started in 2010-2011.

    Initial Supra/Z4 development started in 2012 and ran to 2014 when Toyota and BMW parted ways after agreeing on the basics of the chassis.

    BMW forums and Google show that people knew the B58 was coming to BMW models as early as 2012.

    Put this all together and it would be a stretch to say that Toyota influenced the fundamental design of the B58. I'm seeing no information that would suggest or support that, but plenty of information that goes against it.

    It's possible Toyota asked BMW to make some running changes to the B58 between 2014 and 2019 but parts diagrams are not favorable to that argument, not to mention other B58 variants that were underway before then and share common parts with the B58C.
     
  15. justbake

    justbake Well-Known Member

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    Your estimates and assumptions can't as be used anecdotal evidence.
    Feel free to post a single source saying Toyota did nothing, you have had plenty of opportunities to put this to rest and then you go silent when we ask for proof. It is incredible that youre able to find all this Supra related information that no one on the Supra obsessed forum was able to find.

    Parts diagrams mean absolutely nothing in this argument, for the life of me can not understand how that can be used to make any sort of conclusion on how something was developed. The B58 and B58Tu have so many differences, starting in 2019, how does that constitute the part diagrams being unfavorable? This is all nonsensical trolling
     
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